---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Richard Duffee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 15 Jul 2008 07:54 Subject: Re: [GreenYouth] Anti-brahminism and Anti-semitism To: Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Looked to me like he was arguing that the Hindutva people are anti-Brahmin in the sense that many Christians are anti-Semitic. Curious misperception of both Hindutva AND modern Christianity: "Born-Again" Christians are solidly on the side of Zionists. Nor, of course, have Brahmins been persecuted, let alone starved and thrown in ovens. The appearance of victimization is a great cover for oppressive people: look to me like Brahmins want to be identified with Jews to share in the role of righteous victimization. Pretty sleazy. Richard On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Richard > > I am posting your response in the mailing list where I saw the article > first. I had written aresponse,which I shall send you seperately > > He does seem to be making an assumption of difference between Hindutva and > Brahminism, but there are too many gaps in the piece and it comes across as > condescending > > Love > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Richard Duffee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 14 Jul 2008 20:27 > Subject: Re: [GreenYouth] Anti-brahminism and Anti-semitism > To: Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Bobby, > In the last paragraph I don't get the relevance of this question: > "What is needed to realise that the Hindutva movement has > simply taken its cue from the secularists?" > Can you explain? Is he assuming that Hindutva is anti-Brahmin? I don't get > it. > > The whole thing is argument by analogy, and the analogy does not look that > close to me. The Jews really have and had a different religion from > Christians in Europe. The Brahmins represented and controlled the religion > of most Indians. Jews were not allowed to own land in Germany and many other > countries--by rule both of the Sanhedrin AND the local states--and that > forced them into urban professions to survive. Brahmins were roughly a third > of the land-owners of India. Jews were not in a superior position to most > Christians. Brahmins were in a superior to the vast majority of Hindus. > > The analogy is formed on an analogy between current ideology about Brahmins > and Jews. From this the author wants us to infer that the two ideologies are > equally false and equally destructive without asking seriously whether there > is an analogy between historical reality or between the actual relationships > between the targetted groups and the rest of society. > Richard > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> what do u make of this article >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: C.K. Vishwanath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Date: 9 Jul 2008 10:21 >> Subject: [GreenYouth] Anti-brahminism and Anti-semitism >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Cc: [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. The Parallel between anti-Brahminism and >> anti-S<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZESTCaste/message/11014;_ylc=X3oDMTJzcGlzNjFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEzMzU5MzQ3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2NDMwOQRtc2dJZAMxMTAxNARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjE1NTM2NjEz>emitism >> >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZESTCaste/message/11014;_ylc=X3oDMTJzcGlzNjFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEzMzU5MzQ3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2NDMwOQRtc2dJZAMxMTAxNARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjE1NTM2NjEz> >> Posted >> by >> Thursday, July 03, 2008 >> The Parallel between anti-Brahminism and anti-Semitism >> >> To be against "Brahminism" is part and parcel of the political >> correctness of progressive scholars in twenty-first- century India, >> much like being against Muslims is part of the message of their >> Hindutva colleagues. ... >> >> by Jakob De Roover >> >> Social science debate in India has been hijacked by the struggle >> between secularism and Hindutva for decades now. Usually the Sangh >> Parivar is blamed for this turn of events. However, it could well be >> argued that the Hindutva ideologues simply adopted the stance of the >> secularists. Perhaps the best illustration is the case of >> anti-Brahminism. >> >> To be against "Brahminism" is part and parcel of the political >> correctness of progressive scholars in twenty-first- century India, >> much like being against Muslims is part of the message of their >> Hindutva colleagues. This indicates that something is very wrong with >> the Indian academic debate. Promotion of animosity towards a religious >> tradition or its followers is not acceptable today, but it becomes >> truly perverse when the intelligentsia endorses it. >> >> In Europe, it took horrendous events to put an end to the propaganda >> of anti-Semitism, which had penetrated the media and intelligentsia. >> It required decades of incessant campaigning before anti-Semitism was >> relegated to the realm of intellectual and political bankruptcy. In >> India, anti-Brahminism is still the proud slogan of many political >> parties and the credential of the radical intellectual. >> >> Some may find this parallel between anti-Brahminism and anti-Semitism >> ill-advised. Nevertheless, it has strong grounds. >> >> First, there are striking similarities between the stereotypes about >> Brahmins in India and those about Jews in the West. Jews have been >> described as devious connivers, who would do anything for personal >> gain. They were said to be secretive and untrustworthy, manipulating >> politics and the economy. In India, Brahmins are all too often >> characterised in the same way. >> >> Second, the stereotypes about the Jews were part of a larger story >> about a historical conspiracy in which they had supposedly exploited >> European societies. To this day, the stories about a Jewish conspiracy >> against humanity prevail. The anti-Brahminical stories sound much the >> same, but have the Brahmins plotting against the oppressed classes in >> Indian society. >> >> In both cases, historians have claimed to produce "evidence" that >> cannot be considered so by any standard. Typical of the ideologues of >> anti-Brahminism is the addition of ad hoc ploys whenever their stories >> are challenged by facts. When it is pointed out that the Brahmins have >> not been all that powerful in most parts of the country, or that they >> were poor in many regions, one reverts to the image of the Brahmin >> manipulating kings and politicians behind the scene. We cannot find >> empirical evidence, it is said, because of the secretive way in which >> Brahminism works. >> >> Third, both in anti-Semitic Europe and anti-Brahminical India, this >> goes together with the interpretation of contemporary events in terms >> of these stories. One does not really analyse social tragedies and >> injustices, but approaches them as confirmations of the ideological >> stories. All that goes wrong in society is blamed on the minority in >> question. Violence against Muslims? It must be the "Brahmins" of the >> Sangh Parivar. Opposition against Christian missionaries and the >> approval of anti-conversion laws? "Ah, the Brahmins fear that >> Christianity will empower the lower castes." Members of a scheduled >> caste are killed? "The Brahmin wants to show the Dalit his true place >> in the caste hierarchy." An OBC member loses his job; a lower caste >> girl is raped? "The upper castes must be behind it." So the story >> goes. >> >> This leads to a fourth parallel: in both cases, resentment against the >> minority in question is systematically created and reinforced among >> the majority. >> >> The Jews were accused of sucking all riches out of European societies. >> In the decades before the second World War, more and more people began >> to believe that it was time "to take back what was rightfully theirs." >> In India also, movements have come into being that want to set right >> "the historical injustices of Brahminical oppression." Some have even >> begun to call upon their followers to "exterminate the Brahmins." >> >> In Europe, state policies were implemented that expressed the >> discrimination against Jews. For a very long time, they could not hold >> certain jobs and participate in many social and economic activities. >> In India, one seems to be going this way with policies that claim to >> correct "the historical exploitation by the upper castes." It is >> becoming increasingly difficult for Brahmins to get access to certain >> jobs. In both cases, these policies have been justified in terms of a >> flawed ideological story that passes for social science. >> >> The fifth parallel is that both anti-Semitism and anti-Brahminism have >> deep roots in Christian theology. In the case of Judaism, its >> continuing vitality as a tradition was a threat to Christianity' s >> claim to be the fulfilment of the Jewish prophecies about the Messiah. >> The refusal of Jews to join the religion of Christ (the true Messiah, >> according to Christians) was seen as an unacceptable denial of the >> truth of Christianity. Saint Augustine even wrote that the Jews had to >> continue to exist, but only to show that Christians had not fabricated >> the prophesies about Christ and to confirm that some would not follow >> Christ and be damned for it. >> >> The contemporary stereotypes about Brahmins and the story about >> Brahminism also originate in Christian theology. They reproduce >> Protestant images of the priests of false religion. When European >> missionaries and merchants began to travel to India in great numbers, >> they held two certainties that came from Christian theology: false >> religion would exist in India; and false religion revolved around evil >> priests who had fabricated all kinds of laws, doctrines and rites in >> order to bully the innocent believers into submission. In this way, >> the priests of the devil abused religion for worldly goals. The >> European story about Brahminism and the caste system simply reproduced >> this Protestant image of false religion. The colonials identified the >> Brahmins as the priests and Brahminism as the foundation of false >> religion in India. This is how the dominant image of "the Hindu >> religion" came into being. >> >> The sixth parallel lies in the fact that Christian theology penetrated >> and shaped the "secular" discourse about Judaism and Brahminism. The >> theological criticism became part of common sense and was reproduced >> as scientific truth. In India, this continues unto this day. Social >> scientists still talk about "Brahminism" as the worst thing that ever >> happened to humanity. >> >> Perhaps the most tragic similarity is that some members of the >> minority community have internalised these stories about themselves. >> Some Jews began to believe that they were to blame for what happened >> during the Holocaust; many educated Brahmins now feel that they are >> guilty of historical atrocities against other groups. In some cases, >> this has led to a kind of identity crisis in which they vilify >> "Brahminism" in English-language academic debate, but continue their >> traditions. In other cases, the desire to "defend" these same >> traditions has inspired Brahmins to aggressively support Hindutva. >> >> In twentieth-century Europe, we have seen how dangerous anti-Semitism >> was and what consequences it could have in society. Tragically, >> unimaginable suffering was needed before it was relegated to the realm >> of unacceptable positions. In India, anti-Brahminism was adopted from >> Protestant missionaries by colonial scholars who then passed it on to >> the secularists and Dalit intellectuals. They created the climate which >> allowed the Sangh Parivar to continue hijacking the social sciences >> for petty political purposes. >> >> The question that India has to raise in the twenty-first century is >> this: Do we need bloodshed, before we will realise that the >> reproduction of anti-Brahminism is as harmful as anti-Muslim >> propaganda? What is needed to realise that the Hindutva movement has >> simply taken its cue from the secularists? Do we need a new victory of >> fascism, before we will admit that pernicious ideologies should not be >> sold as social science? >> >> >> >> Visit Your Group >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZESTCaste;_ylc=X3oDMTJmOTI5cXNnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEzMzU5MzQ3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2NDMwOQRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU1MzY2MTM-> >> Need traffic? >> >> Drive >> customers<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13odrs2t2/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705064309:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215543814/L=/B=cmxQAELaX9s-/J=1215536614151727/A=3848644/R=0/SIG=131l83flq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2006&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups5&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50> >> >> With search ads >> >> on Yahoo! >> 10 Day Club >> >> on Yahoo! >> Groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o4fauun/M=493064.12016283.12445687.8674578/D=groups/S=1705064309:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215543814/L=/B=c2xQAELaX9s-/J=1215536614151727/A=5202316/R=0/SIG=11aijbghb/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/allbrangroup> >> >> Share the benefits >> >> of a high fiber diet. >> Y! Groups blog >> >> the best >> source<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o5irv16/M=493064.12016258.12582637.8674578/D=groups/S=1705064309:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215543814/L=/B=dGxQAELaX9s-/J=1215536614151727/A=5191955/R=0/SIG=112mhte3e/*http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/> >> >> for the latest >> >> scoop on Groups. >> Need to Reply? >> >> Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the >> Daily Digest. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bobby Kunhu >> http://community.eldis.org/myshkin/Blog/ > > > > > -- > Bobby Kunhu > http://community.eldis.org/myshkin/Blog/ > -- Bobby Kunhu http://community.eldis.org/myshkin/Blog/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. 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