Hi all. I have the sollution for this accessibility thing. I'm starting a new open-source blog that deals with all accessibility aspects. If you want more information, go to http://accessibilityanyware.blogspot.com/ Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <[email protected]> To: "GW-INFO List" <[email protected]> Date: Saturday, Sep 4, 2010 21:47:59 Subject: Re: long rant was Re: GW Micro Responds to the Future of Screen Readers Discussion Panel Questions
> > > Erik, > > The main thrust of my previous note was directed at the issue of including a > free screen reader in Windows and that, > while "disservice" might not have been the word I would have chosen, it isn't > unreasonable to think that it may not be in > our best interest. That seemed to me to be contrary to what you were saying. > My point > was not that Apple or Microsoft is better, only that they are different. I > am concerned about the ability > of older blind people not being able to afford screen readers, too, that is a > real problem. I am also concerned, though, > about blind persons who are struggling to maintain employment, and that our > needs are going to be buried by other more > recreational needs. I also don't understand some of your statements > regarding the concern with being a small market. > Accessibility awareness is something that can be raised in a broad sense and > that is a good thing. At some point, > though, groups of disabled persons need different things to make systems > accessible and these differences can even > conflict at times. The deaf and the blind, for example, need very different > things. In my home state, we'ave worked > together with organizations of deaf persons to get legislation through, but > that can mean including two completely > separate specifics into the law but calling them accessibility. For example, > getting funding for closed captioning and > talking newspapers works but the implementation is completely different. We > need to try to get Microsoft, Apple, and > other manufacturers to think about accessibility in a universal sense, but I > don't see us being able to benefit from > universal access without some specialized products which will mean small > market constraints. Perhaps that is what you > are saying, but my impression is that you are putting too much faith in > universal access as a stand-alone solution for the > future and being critical of those who may not be as certain the future will > unfold that way or at least not quickly enough. > I think this makes some of what GW Micro has said strike more nerves for you > than it did for me. Still, I agree that the > company I have also come to trust and admire needs to be careful that what is > said is accurate. However, we also > have to be open that the future of accessibility could unfold in a number of > ways depending upon many factors and try > to prepare for any eventuality. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > We live in some interesting times that may affect us for some time to come. > They are also very complex. > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2010 22:07:11 com0400, erik burggraaf wrote: > > >Hi Steve, I've said this before, but maybe it bares repeating. The point > >of the rant was not that apple is doing a better > job than windows in general or GWMicro in particular. This has very little > to do with one thing vs another. The point of > the matter is that GWMicro has published as fact a number of items which > simply are not true in fact, Not only about > apple, but also about Serotech and NV-Access to a lesser extent. Then they > are making contradictory statements > about the future of access technology based on the misinformation they > published. This is bad for the company, > because it damages their credibility, which they have worked for over 20 > years to keep high. It's bad for their product > because educated consumers will read what they published, realize it is > wrong, and make future purchasing decisions > based partly on what they perceive to be the decline of window-eyes > development. People will look at all the garbage > in this post and you wouldn't blame them for ignoring all of the actual > factual information that shows window-eyes to be > better in many areas than it's direct competitor. If over a quarter of the > article is just plane wrong, poorly researched and > contradictory, educated consumers will throw out the other 75% if this is > their first exposure to window-eyes. It's bad for > consumers. Look at the number of people here who appear love window-eyes > almost as if it were a person. > Uneducated consumers will swallow this article hole and regurgitate it to > other people and the flow of misinformation will > continue. People making buying decisions based on misinformation is bad, > whether it leads to increased sales for > GWMicro or not. > > >One article is not enough to bring GWMicro crashing down around all our > >ears, but a public demonstration of sheer > ignorance is not the sort of thing the guys want to be having to deal with on > a regular basis. We haven't heard anything > from them on this, but I'm assuming something will be done about it at some > point, or that maybe it is already being taken > care of internally. > > >Best, > > >Erik Burggraaf > >Check out my first ever podcast tutorial, Learn braille using the braille > >box. > >Visit http://www.erik-burggraaf.com and click podcasts to read more and > >subscribe. > > >On 2010-09-02, at 10:55 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote: > > >ar Erik, > >ar > >ar Even with the note i wrote previously before seeing yours, I believe you > >make some good theoretical points here. > What > >ar I do not think you addressed in your note is the differences between the > >Apple and Microsoft environments. > Because > >ar something may work in one market does not mean it will work well in the > >other. The goal of a universal access > >ar computer out of the box is a worthy one and I don't know how anyone could > >disagree with that. Apple seems to be > >ar doing a good job of making it happen. From what I know of the migration > >of Windows, and I am not an insider, I can > >ar see that there could come a time when it might take a less robust screen > >reader to do the job within Windows which > >ar could take fewer resources to support. This could make a cheaper screen > >reader possible or make it something > >ar Microsoft could support, but as one who is completely dependent upon good > >screen reader support to do my job, I'd > >ar want to know a lot about what they would propose before feeling > >comfortable with it. While I might not have used > the > >ar word "disservice," I feel very much that having a full-featured screen > >reader included with Windows at this point > would > >ar not necessarily be in our interest. We do need to address the needs of > >an aging blind population and I don't have all > of > >ar the answers, but I think that we need to be sure that in an effort to get > >cheaper accessibility we also don't end up > with > >ar less accessibility. I am not saying Apple necessarily provides less > >accessibility, only that we need to keep it in mind > as > >ar we look at what happens with Windows.My opinions, though, are subject to > >watching what Apple does over the next > >ar few years and also how Windows evolves. Things could change. However, I > >would not be happy with GW Micro if > >ar they did not have a business plan that reaches into the future. Even if > >we speculate about possible changes, they > need > >ar to plan on being around to maintain what they are doing today, so their > >responses to these questions should be > >ar expected. > >ar > >ar Best regards, > >ar > >ar Steve Jacobson > >ar > >ar On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:43:49 com0400, erik burggraaf wrote: > >ar > >>>> Guys, I tried to keep the below as polite and forthright as possible, > >>>> but it degenerates in places and reading and > >ar rereading, I don't really see the benefit of removing some of the > >language that might be considered offensive or > >ar abridging my comments. I really feel this needs to be said, not for the > >purpose of offending, but for the purpose of > taking > >ar what I feel is the right stance. > >>>> > >>>> Hi Mark, this is bad... Very very bad. There are glaring inaccuracies > >>>> in this release. I sincerely hope you did not > >ar send it to any public forums other than gw micro customer base. I've > >quoted what I want to draw your attention to in > my > >ar comments, but left the entire article below for people to read in it's > >entirety. > >>>> > >>>> Article 6: You wrote, > >>>> "what incentive would Apple have to make their screen reader work with > >>>> Microsoft Office and what incentive > would > >ar Microsoft have to make their screen reader work with iTunes?" > >>>> This Demonstrates a lack of understanding on how the other side works. > >>>> Windows is not mac OS, and mac OS is > >ar not windows. On the mac side, you have a screen reader, but you also > >have a fully accessible operating system. > The > >ar libraries and API's used to build programs generate accessible programs, > >which are then read and interpreted by an > >ar accessible operating system, which then sends information to voiceover... > >or a talk box... or a TTY machine... Or > >ar whatever. For now, Microsoft has chosen to make office for mac > >inaccessible at great pains to themselves. Apple > and > >ar adobe have a love hate relationship, and so adobe products on the mac are > >hit and miss for accessibility users and > non > >ar alike. As the system develops though, It will eventually become > >impossible to build a program on the mac platform > that > >ar is inaccessible to apples universal access design. As such, all software > >written for macs will eventually be > accessible, > >ar whether you are blind, deaf, dyslexic, paraplegic, or have any other > >disability. We may have to chase every version > of > >ar ITunes on the windows side, but eventually office for mac will be > >accessible whether ms likes it or not, unless they > >ar simply choose to scrap office for mac development before things get to > >that stage. We still have a ways to go. > >>>>> > >>>> Article Seven: you wrote, > >>>> "In addition, GW Micro is the only screen reader manufacturer to host > >>>> and moderate an email discussion list. This > list > >ar is a great resource that allows our customers to discuss technical issues > >and questions with GW Microininness technical > >ar support team as well others in the Window-Eyes community." > >>>> This is incorrect. NVDA developers run their own user support group > >>>> exactly like GW Micro's. The lead developer > of > >ar the Espeak software was also a regular contributor when I was there, and > >There should be a braillety developer on there > by > >ar now. Apples accessibility team also monitors the macvisionaries user > >group. While they don't usually participate, > >ar hundreds of feature requests that get bandied about the group are > >implemented with every new release. I know for a > >ar fact that they are watching that group because they have posted publicly > >there on occasion, and the fact that they > are > >ar usually quiet doesn't mean they are ignoring their customer base. I > >believe duxbury systems moderates it's own > groups, > >ar and I'm sure there are others. > >>>> > >>>> Article 9: This made me furious when I read it because it demonstrates > >>>> an appalling amount of sheer ignorance. > The > >ar statements are categorically false, and should be retracted immediately > >before they generate well deserved ill feelings > >ar against the company you represent. I'd like to say, I have been an apple > >user for 2 and a half years. before that I > was a > >ar very happy window-eyes user, and though I seldom actually use the product > >these days, I still keep up my sma, and > my > >ar switch to apple was entirely driven by dissatisfaction with windows, and > >in no way reflects any dissatisfaction with > >ar window-eyes or GWMicro. I still continue to enjoy supporting and > >training on window-eyes and I'm confident > >ar recommending it to clients. I'm still pretty mad though. You wrote: > >>>>> "GW Micro believes that having a free screen reader as part of the > >>>>> operating system does a disservice to Blind > >ar computer users." > >>>>> > >>>> That's an extremely shaky position to be in, and I'll topple you in a > >>>> second. For now, I want to say that if it wasn't > for > >ar governemnt funding, I wouldn't have window-eyes. I bought it well before > >the days of the payment plan. Last > >ar Christmas, I bought a brand new operating system from apple including a > >fully functional screen reader for $35 > >ar Canadian. A new window-eyes upgrade and a copy of win7 would have cost > >me just over $300 Canadian, $195 for > the > >ar upgrade from WE6 to 7, and $120 for a copy of win7 home premium. not > >that I think the window-eyes upgrade was > not > >ar good value for money, but if one doesn't have $300 to spend, then they > >just don't have. it. If Ontario's rather dubious > >ar funding system were to vanish tomorrow, the number of blind people using > >mac here would go up 500 times in the > next > >ar year. > >>>>> "The relatively small size of the screen reader market does not allow > >>>>> Microsoft or Apple to invest the amount of > >ar resources that accessibility truly deserves." > >>>>> > >>>> This is so non-visionary, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so > >>>> inflammatory . Accessibility is not about blind people. > We > >ar do this all the damn time and it's the most selfish stupid thing I've > >ever heard. I'm saddened to hear it spewing out of > my > >ar screen reader from a company I respect. OK, you serve blind people, and > >blind people are a small market, especially > >ar blind people who work or go to school or whatever. I mean, most people > >who are blind have macular degeneration > >ar which sets in between the ages of 60 and 70. They still want to use > >computers,, but their needs are not extravagant. > In > >ar a world where 1 per sent of the total population is blind, I'm the freak > >of nature who was just born with RP. The odds > >ar against are astronomically high. So, whenever this subject comes up, it > >always saddens me to hear people natter > about > >ar how small the blind community is and all the trials and tribulations > >involved in providing accessibility. Hello world, is > >ar anybody listening? I'm going to say something really profound here. You > >won't want to miss this. The world, does > not, > >ar revolve, around, blind people. There are, other people, who need, > >accessibility, besides, you john blind person. > There > >ar are deaf people out there. Milionds of normal looking people on the > >street that you walk by every day have learning > >ar disabilities. There are people with musculature and fine motor > >problems., people who don't have all of their limbs, or > >ar maybe they only have two fingers on one hand. The number of disabilities > >that inhibit access and the number of > >ar potential users that benefit from a universally accessible design is > >limitless. It's not about building a screen reader so > that > >ar apple can sell more computers to blind people, although they are doing a > >phenomenal job of that. It's about building > a > >ar computer that can be used by anyone, regardless of their disability. > >When you look at it that way, the economics > make > >ar more sense. GW micro builds stuff for blind people, and that's great. > >They do a good job of building stuff for blind > >ar people. But apple is building stuff for everyone, regardless of > >disability, and they are doing a good job at it. > >>>> > >>>>> "Without a major change in Microsoft or Appleininness infrastructure, > >>>>> they would be ill-prepared to develop a strong and > >ar evolving screen reader as well as provide the type of support that is > >often required by screen reader users." > >>>>> > >>>> Wrong again. Or at least, if a change was needed, it happened in apple, > >>>> and the signs started showing 5 or 6 > years > >ar ago. That means the actual change you speak of probably took place many > >years before that. Window-eyes is a > very > >ar good product. Certainly better than it's closest windows counterpart, > >but my friend, voiceover is getting to be at least > as > >ar good as window-eyes, and if the position of GWMicro is truly that apple > >will never build a full featured competitive > screen > >ar reader then you had better get your head out of your collective asses or > >the wave is going to sweep this company > away. > >ar Voiceover offers access to the web which is at least as robust as > >window-eyes or it's competitor except for adobe > flash > >ar which is mostly adobe's fault. Voiceover offers read-write braille > >support via usb and bluetooth for at least 25 braille > >ar displays. Voiceover has a non-proprietary full featured scripting model > >using apple script which is a part of mac OS. > >ar Voiceover even has truly useful features that window-eyes does not yet > >have. For example, window-eyes does not > >ar provide full access or as far as I know, any access at all to the > >multi-touch trackpad on windows PC's. You can not > use > >ar jesters in window-eyes to control your pc, a feature which many blind mac > >users have come to rely on once past the > >ar learning curve. > >>>> As far as the support goes, I can take my computer into any apple store > >>>> or apple reseller and they will sit down in > >ar front of me and fix my problem. If they don't know what the solution is, > >they will look it up. There are a lot of people > >ar supporting apple. Apple hires individuals based on a huge array of > >factors, and they generally manage to finddgood > >ar people. It is possible to have a bad tech support experience with apple, > >but it's also possible to have the same with > >ar GW, or in deed any company. Support is a hard job. When things aren't > >going your way it can be extremely stressful > for > >ar both the support person and the one being supported. It's important to > >be careful about how you criticize some one > >ar else's support or decry your own. Although I really think GW has very > >good support overall, I would hesitate to pick > out > >ar any one company and say, "that one has the best support". Still, I get > >face to face, one on one attention for my > >ar problems and questions from apple. I can have training from the apple > >store if I want, and for less than what GW > would > >ar charge. I can't even get GW's training courses here, much as I'd love to > >have them. In order to bring the courses > here, > >ar I have to find 5 to 10 people who want the course and have the money to > >pay for it, find a venue to host it, and so > on. > >ar I've read the review of window-eyes training courses. It made me drool, > >but I don't think it's accurate at all to say that > a > >ar mainstream provider can't give blind customers the attention they need. > >>>>> "Without competition from screen reader manufacturers like GW Micro > >>>>> there will be no incentive for Apple or > >ar Microsoft to include a feature-rich and powerful screen reader into their > >operating system." > >>>>> > >>>> Well I think we've put pay to the fully functioning nonsense. > >>>> Competition isn't bad. I'm for sure grateful I had a > >ar choice between jaws and window-eyes back in the day. It's saved me a lot > >of frustration. I'm for sure grateful I had > a > >ar choice between mac and windows, cause even though I work a job, I'm not > >exactly the most wealthy guy in the > world, > >ar and I have to watch it. I'm glad the vinux project is doing so well, and > >I love looking forward to the new release of > >ar NVDA every year. It would be really tough for any one to come in and > >compete with apple though. How do you > beat > >ar some one in the market when they offer a universally accessible operating > >system? I guess there is vinux, but it's a > >ar tough sell. Now you are talking around in circles, because first you say > >that there's no way a mainstream company > can > >ar build and support a full functioning screen reader, and Then you say that > >competition from companies like GW Micro > is > >ar driving microsoft and apple accessibility.. This is ridiculous. You can > >not have it both ways. In fact, my info is that > full > >ar accessibility was tried by MS back around the turn of the century, and it > >got squashed by the NFB, who incidentally, > did > >ar a huge hack job on Voiceover when Leopard came out and was forced to > >print retractions, after users demonstrated > >ar numerous statements made by the organization to be completely false. > >Wherefore, no one was interested in mac OS > 10 > >ar until apple made it interesting, and now it's competitive after many > >years of work and revision. Where were GWMicro > >ar and Freedom Scientific back in OS10.1? Serving the 90% windows community > >and being paid rather well for doing > so, > >ar while apple took the initiative and built something. So both of these > >statements trip over eachother and fall flat on > their > >ar faces. > >>>>> > >>>>> GWMicro has so many good things to offer blind users, and I'm sorry > >>>>> that no one else showed up for the show > >ar down; However, If you publish something like this to a wider community, > >then what you have to offer is going to get > lost > >ar amid all the inaccurate, contradictory and inflammatory statements about > >other companies and the blind community. > >ar This is not the way, and I very much hope you will reconsider. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Erik Burggraaf > >>>> Check out my first ever podcast tutorial, Learn braille using the > >>>> braille box. > >>>> Visit http://www.erik-burggraaf.com and click podcasts to read more and > >>>> subscribe. > >>>> > >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 2:28 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Earlier this summer, the Information Access Committee invited GW Micro, > >>>>> Freedom Scientific, Serotek, NVDA and > >ar Apple to participate in the Future of Screen Readers discussion panel at > >the 2010 ACB convention in Phoenix > Arizona. > >ar When the time came for the discussion panel, GW Micro was the only screen > >reader manufacturer that showed up to > >ar participate. In fairness, Serotek and NVDA attempted to participate via > >Skype but were unable to do so because of > >ar Internet connectivity issues in the hotel conference area. As for the > >others, Freedom Scientific declined to > participate > >ar and Apple did not even acknoweldge the invitation sent by the Information > >Access Committee. GW Micro would > like to > >ar take this opportunity to publicly respond to the 10 questions asked of > >each participant and you can find the ten > >ar discussion panel questions along with our responses below: > >>>>> > >ar > >ar > >>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender > >>> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list > >ar and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending > >your message to [email protected] so > the > >ar entire list will receive it. > >ar > >>> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can > >>> manage your list subscription at > >ar http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. > >ar > >ar > >ar If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender > >only. If your reply would benefit others on the list > and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your > message to [email protected] so the > entire list will receive it. > >ar > >ar GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can > >manage your list subscription at > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. > >ar > >If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender > >only. If your reply would benefit others on the list > and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your > message to [email protected] so the > entire list will receive it. > > >GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. 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