Erik, The main thrust of my previous note was directed at the issue of including a free screen reader in Windows and that, while "disservice" might not have been the word I would have chosen, it isn't unreasonable to think that it may not be in our best interest. That seemed to me to be contrary to what you were saying. My point was not that Apple or Microsoft is better, only that they are different. I am concerned about the ability of older blind people not being able to afford screen readers, too, that is a real problem. I am also concerned, though, about blind persons who are struggling to maintain employment, and that our needs are going to be buried by other more recreational needs. I also don't understand some of your statements regarding the concern with being a small market. Accessibility awareness is something that can be raised in a broad sense and that is a good thing. At some point, though, groups of disabled persons need different things to make systems accessible and these differences can even conflict at times. The deaf and the blind, for example, need very different things. In my home state, we'ave worked together with organizations of deaf persons to get legislation through, but that can mean including two completely separate specifics into the law but calling them accessibility. For example, getting funding for closed captioning and talking newspapers works but the implementation is completely different. We need to try to get Microsoft, Apple, and other manufacturers to think about accessibility in a universal sense, but I don't see us being able to benefit from universal access without some specialized products which will mean small market constraints. Perhaps that is what you are saying, but my impression is that you are putting too much faith in universal access as a stand-alone solution for the future and being critical of those who may not be as certain the future will unfold that way or at least not quickly enough. I think this makes some of what GW Micro has said strike more nerves for you than it did for me. Still, I agree that the company I have also come to trust and admire needs to be careful that what is said is accurate. However, we also have to be open that the future of accessibility could unfold in a number of ways depending upon many factors and try to prepare for any eventuality.
Best regards, Steve Jacobson We live in some interesting times that may affect us for some time to come. They are also very complex. On Fri, 3 Sep 2010 22:07:11 -0400, erik burggraaf wrote: >Hi Steve, I've said this before, but maybe it bares repeating. The point of >the rant was not that apple is doing a better job than windows in general or GWMicro in particular. This has very little to do with one thing vs another. The point of the matter is that GWMicro has published as fact a number of items which simply are not true in fact, Not only about apple, but also about Serotech and NV-Access to a lesser extent. Then they are making contradictory statements about the future of access technology based on the misinformation they published. This is bad for the company, because it damages their credibility, which they have worked for over 20 years to keep high. It's bad for their product because educated consumers will read what they published, realize it is wrong, and make future purchasing decisions based partly on what they perceive to be the decline of window-eyes development. People will look at all the garbage in this post and you wouldn't blame them for ignoring all of the actual factual information that shows window-eyes to be better in many areas than it's direct competitor. If over a quarter of the article is just plane wrong, poorly researched and contradictory, educated consumers will throw out the other 75% if this is their first exposure to window-eyes. It's bad for consumers. Look at the number of people here who appear love window-eyes almost as if it were a person. Uneducated consumers will swallow this article hole and regurgitate it to other people and the flow of misinformation will continue. People making buying decisions based on misinformation is bad, whether it leads to increased sales for GWMicro or not. >One article is not enough to bring GWMicro crashing down around all our ears, >but a public demonstration of sheer ignorance is not the sort of thing the guys want to be having to deal with on a regular basis. We haven't heard anything from them on this, but I'm assuming something will be done about it at some point, or that maybe it is already being taken care of internally. >Best, >Erik Burggraaf >Check out my first ever podcast tutorial, Learn braille using the braille box. >Visit http://www.erik-burggraaf.com and click podcasts to read more and >subscribe. >On 2010-09-02, at 10:55 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Erik, >> >> Even with the note i wrote previously before seeing yours, I believe you >> make some good theoretical points here. What >> I do not think you addressed in your note is the differences between the >> Apple and Microsoft environments. Because >> something may work in one market does not mean it will work well in the >> other. The goal of a universal access >> computer out of the box is a worthy one and I don't know how anyone could >> disagree with that. Apple seems to be >> doing a good job of making it happen. From what I know of the migration of >> Windows, and I am not an insider, I can >> see that there could come a time when it might take a less robust screen >> reader to do the job within Windows which >> could take fewer resources to support. This could make a cheaper screen >> reader possible or make it something >> Microsoft could support, but as one who is completely dependent upon good >> screen reader support to do my job, I'd >> want to know a lot about what they would propose before feeling comfortable >> with it. While I might not have used the >> word "disservice," I feel very much that having a full-featured screen >> reader included with Windows at this point would >> not necessarily be in our interest. We do need to address the needs of an >> aging blind population and I don't have all of >> the answers, but I think that we need to be sure that in an effort to get >> cheaper accessibility we also don't end up with >> less accessibility. I am not saying Apple necessarily provides less >> accessibility, only that we need to keep it in mind as >> we look at what happens with Windows.My opinions, though, are subject to >> watching what Apple does over the next >> few years and also how Windows evolves. Things could change. However, I >> would not be happy with GW Micro if >> they did not have a business plan that reaches into the future. Even if we >> speculate about possible changes, they need >> to plan on being around to maintain what they are doing today, so their >> responses to these questions should be >> expected. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:43:49 -0400, erik burggraaf wrote: >> >>>> Guys, I tried to keep the below as polite and forthright as possible, but >>>> it degenerates in places and reading and >> rereading, I don't really see the benefit of removing some of the language >> that might be considered offensive or >> abridging my comments. I really feel this needs to be said, not for the >> purpose of offending, but for the purpose of taking >> what I feel is the right stance. >>>> >>>> Hi Mark, this is bad... Very very bad. There are glaring inaccuracies >>>> in this release. I sincerely hope you did not >> send it to any public forums other than gw micro customer base. I've quoted >> what I want to draw your attention to in my >> comments, but left the entire article below for people to read in it's >> entirety. >>>> >>>> Article 6: You wrote, >>>> "what incentive would Apple have to make their screen reader work with >>>> Microsoft Office and what incentive would >> Microsoft have to make their screen reader work with iTunes?" >>>> This Demonstrates a lack of understanding on how the other side works. >>>> Windows is not mac OS, and mac OS is >> not windows. On the mac side, you have a screen reader, but you also have a >> fully accessible operating system. The >> libraries and API's used to build programs generate accessible programs, >> which are then read and interpreted by an >> accessible operating system, which then sends information to voiceover... or >> a talk box... or a TTY machine... Or >> whatever. For now, Microsoft has chosen to make office for mac inaccessible >> at great pains to themselves. Apple and >> adobe have a love hate relationship, and so adobe products on the mac are >> hit and miss for accessibility users and non >> alike. As the system develops though, It will eventually become impossible >> to build a program on the mac platform that >> is inaccessible to apples universal access design. As such, all software >> written for macs will eventually be accessible, >> whether you are blind, deaf, dyslexic, paraplegic, or have any other >> disability. We may have to chase every version of >> ITunes on the windows side, but eventually office for mac will be accessible >> whether ms likes it or not, unless they >> simply choose to scrap office for mac development before things get to that >> stage. We still have a ways to go. >>>>> >>>> Article Seven: you wrote, >>>> "In addition, GW Micro is the only screen reader manufacturer to host and >>>> moderate an email discussion list. This list >> is a great resource that allows our customers to discuss technical issues >> and questions with GW Micros technical >> support team as well others in the Window-Eyes community." >>>> This is incorrect. NVDA developers run their own user support group >>>> exactly like GW Micro's. The lead developer of >> the Espeak software was also a regular contributor when I was there, and >> There should be a brlty developer on there by >> now. Apples accessibility team also monitors the macvisionaries user group. >> While they don't usually participate, >> hundreds of feature requests that get bandied about the group are >> implemented with every new release. I know for a >> fact that they are watching that group because they have posted publicly >> there on occasion, and the fact that they are >> usually quiet doesn't mean they are ignoring their customer base. I believe >> duxbury systems moderates it's own groups, >> and I'm sure there are others. >>>> >>>> Article 9: This made me furious when I read it because it demonstrates an >>>> appalling amount of sheer ignorance. The >> statements are categorically false, and should be retracted immediately >> before they generate well deserved ill feelings >> against the company you represent. I'd like to say, I have been an apple >> user for 2 and a half years. before that I was a >> very happy window-eyes user, and though I seldom actually use the product >> these days, I still keep up my sma, and my >> switch to apple was entirely driven by dissatisfaction with windows, and in >> no way reflects any dissatisfaction with >> window-eyes or GWMicro. I still continue to enjoy supporting and training >> on window-eyes and I'm confident >> recommending it to clients. I'm still pretty mad though. You wrote: >>>>> "GW Micro believes that having a free screen reader as part of the >>>>> operating system does a disservice to Blind >> computer users." >>>>> >>>> That's an extremely shaky position to be in, and I'll topple you in a >>>> second. For now, I want to say that if it wasn't for >> governemnt funding, I wouldn't have window-eyes. I bought it well before >> the days of the payment plan. Last >> Christmas, I bought a brand new operating system from apple including a >> fully functional screen reader for $35 >> Canadian. A new window-eyes upgrade and a copy of win7 would have cost me >> just over $300 Canadian, $195 for the >> upgrade from WE6 to 7, and $120 for a copy of win7 home premium. not that I >> think the window-eyes upgrade was not >> good value for money, but if one doesn't have $300 to spend, then they just >> don't have. it. If Ontario's rather dubious >> funding system were to vanish tomorrow, the number of blind people using mac >> here would go up 500 times in the next >> year. >>>>> "The relatively small size of the screen reader market does not allow >>>>> Microsoft or Apple to invest the amount of >> resources that accessibility truly deserves." >>>>> >>>> This is so non-visionary, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so >>>> inflammatory . Accessibility is not about blind people. We >> do this all the damn time and it's the most selfish stupid thing I've ever >> heard. I'm saddened to hear it spewing out of my >> screen reader from a company I respect. OK, you serve blind people, and >> blind people are a small market, especially >> blind people who work or go to school or whatever. I mean, most people who >> are blind have macular degeneration >> which sets in between the ages of 60 and 70. They still want to use >> computers,, but their needs are not extravagant. In >> a world where 1 per sent of the total population is blind, I'm the freak of >> nature who was just born with RP. The odds >> against are astronomically high. So, whenever this subject comes up, it >> always saddens me to hear people natter about >> how small the blind community is and all the trials and tribulations >> involved in providing accessibility. Hello world, is >> anybody listening? I'm going to say something really profound here. You >> won't want to miss this. The world, does not, >> revolve, around, blind people. There are, other people, who need, >> accessibility, besides, you john blind person. There >> are deaf people out there. Milionds of normal looking people on the street >> that you walk by every day have learning >> disabilities. There are people with musculature and fine motor problems., >> people who don't have all of their limbs, or >> maybe they only have two fingers on one hand. The number of disabilities >> that inhibit access and the number of >> potential users that benefit from a universally accessible design is >> limitless. It's not about building a screen reader so that >> apple can sell more computers to blind people, although they are doing a >> phenomenal job of that. It's about building a >> computer that can be used by anyone, regardless of their disability. When >> you look at it that way, the economics make >> more sense. GW micro builds stuff for blind people, and that's great. They >> do a good job of building stuff for blind >> people. But apple is building stuff for everyone, regardless of disability, >> and they are doing a good job at it. >>>> >>>>> "Without a major change in Microsoft or Apples infrastructure, they >>>>> would be ill-prepared to develop a strong and >> evolving screen reader as well as provide the type of support that is often >> required by screen reader users." >>>>> >>>> Wrong again. Or at least, if a change was needed, it happened in apple, >>>> and the signs started showing 5 or 6 years >> ago. That means the actual change you speak of probably took place many >> years before that. Window-eyes is a very >> good product. Certainly better than it's closest windows counterpart, but >> my friend, voiceover is getting to be at least as >> good as window-eyes, and if the position of GWMicro is truly that apple will >> never build a full featured competitive screen >> reader then you had better get your head out of your collective asses or the >> wave is going to sweep this company away. >> Voiceover offers access to the web which is at least as robust as >> window-eyes or it's competitor except for adobe flash >> which is mostly adobe's fault. Voiceover offers read-write braille support >> via usb and bluetooth for at least 25 braille >> displays. Voiceover has a non-proprietary full featured scripting model >> using apple script which is a part of mac OS. >> Voiceover even has truly useful features that window-eyes does not yet have. >> For example, window-eyes does not >> provide full access or as far as I know, any access at all to the >> multi-touch trackpad on windows PC's. You can not use >> jesters in window-eyes to control your pc, a feature which many blind mac >> users have come to rely on once past the >> learning curve. >>>> As far as the support goes, I can take my computer into any apple store or >>>> apple reseller and they will sit down in >> front of me and fix my problem. If they don't know what the solution is, >> they will look it up. There are a lot of people >> supporting apple. Apple hires individuals based on a huge array of factors, >> and they generally manage to finddgood >> people. It is possible to have a bad tech support experience with apple, >> but it's also possible to have the same with >> GW, or in deed any company. Support is a hard job. When things aren't >> going your way it can be extremely stressful for >> both the support person and the one being supported. It's important to be >> careful about how you criticize some one >> else's support or decry your own. Although I really think GW has very good >> support overall, I would hesitate to pick out >> any one company and say, "that one has the best support". Still, I get face >> to face, one on one attention for my >> problems and questions from apple. I can have training from the apple store >> if I want, and for less than what GW would >> charge. I can't even get GW's training courses here, much as I'd love to >> have them. In order to bring the courses here, >> I have to find 5 to 10 people who want the course and have the money to pay >> for it, find a venue to host it, and so on. >> I've read the review of window-eyes training courses. It made me drool, but >> I don't think it's accurate at all to say that a >> mainstream provider can't give blind customers the attention they need. >>>>> "Without competition from screen reader manufacturers like GW Micro there >>>>> will be no incentive for Apple or >> Microsoft to include a feature-rich and powerful screen reader into their >> operating system." >>>>> >>>> Well I think we've put pay to the fully functioning nonsense. Competition >>>> isn't bad. I'm for sure grateful I had a >> choice between jaws and window-eyes back in the day. It's saved me a lot of >> frustration. I'm for sure grateful I had a >> choice between mac and windows, cause even though I work a job, I'm not >> exactly the most wealthy guy in the world, >> and I have to watch it. I'm glad the vinux project is doing so well, and I >> love looking forward to the new release of >> NVDA every year. It would be really tough for any one to come in and >> compete with apple though. How do you beat >> some one in the market when they offer a universally accessible operating >> system? I guess there is vinux, but it's a >> tough sell. Now you are talking around in circles, because first you say >> that there's no way a mainstream company can >> build and support a full functioning screen reader, and Then you say that >> competition from companies like GW Micro is >> driving microsoft and apple accessibility.. This is ridiculous. You can >> not have it both ways. In fact, my info is that full >> accessibility was tried by MS back around the turn of the century, and it >> got squashed by the NFB, who incidentally, did >> a huge hack job on Voiceover when Leopard came out and was forced to print >> retractions, after users demonstrated >> numerous statements made by the organization to be completely false. >> Wherefore, no one was interested in mac OS 10 >> until apple made it interesting, and now it's competitive after many years >> of work and revision. Where were GWMicro >> and Freedom Scientific back in OS10.1? Serving the 90% windows community >> and being paid rather well for doing so, >> while apple took the initiative and built something. So both of these >> statements trip over eachother and fall flat on their >> faces. >>>>> >>>>> GWMicro has so many good things to offer blind users, and I'm sorry that >>>>> no one else showed up for the show >> down; However, If you publish something like this to a wider community, then >> what you have to offer is going to get lost >> amid all the inaccurate, contradictory and inflammatory statements about >> other companies and the blind community. >> This is not the way, and I very much hope you will reconsider. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>> Check out my first ever podcast tutorial, Learn braille using the braille >>>> box. >>>> Visit http://www.erik-burggraaf.com and click podcasts to read more and >>>> subscribe. >>>> >>>> On 2010-09-01, at 2:28 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Earlier this summer, the Information Access Committee invited GW Micro, >>>>> Freedom Scientific, Serotek, NVDA and >> Apple to participate in the Future of Screen Readers discussion panel at the >> 2010 ACB convention in Phoenix Arizona. >> When the time came for the discussion panel, GW Micro was the only screen >> reader manufacturer that showed up to >> participate. In fairness, Serotek and NVDA attempted to participate via >> Skype but were unable to do so because of >> Internet connectivity issues in the hotel conference area. As for the >> others, Freedom Scientific declined to participate >> and Apple did not even acknoweldge the invitation sent by the Information >> Access Committee. GW Micro would like to >> take this opportunity to publicly respond to the 10 questions asked of each >> participant and you can find the ten >> discussion panel questions along with our responses below: >>>>> >> >> >>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender >>> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list >> and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your >> message to [email protected] so the >> entire list will receive it. >> >>> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can >>> manage your list subscription at >> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >> >> >> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender >> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. >> >> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can >> manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >> >If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. >If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. >GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage >your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
