Erik,
The main thrust of my previous note was directed at the issue of
including
a free screen reader in Windows and that,
while "disservice" might not have been the word I would have chosen, it
isn't unreasonable to think that it may not be in
our best interest. That seemed to me to be contrary to what you were
saying. My point
was not that Apple or Microsoft is better, only that they are different.
I am concerned about the ability
of older blind people not being able to afford screen readers, too, that
is a real problem. I am also concerned, though,
about blind persons who are struggling to maintain employment, and that
our needs are going to be buried by other more
recreational needs. I also don't understand some of your statements
regarding the concern with being a small market.
Accessibility awareness is something that can be raised in a broad sense
and that is a good thing. At some point,
though, groups of disabled persons need different things to make systems
accessible and these differences can even
conflict at times. The deaf and the blind, for example, need very
different things. In my home state, we'ave worked
together with organizations of deaf persons to get legislation through,
but that can mean including two completely
separate specifics into the law but calling them accessibility. For
example, getting funding for closed captioning and
talking newspapers works but the implementation is completely different.
We need to try to get Microsoft, Apple, and
other manufacturers to think about accessibility in a universal sense,
but
I don't see us being able to benefit from
universal access without some specialized products which will mean small
market constraints. Perhaps that is what you
are saying, but my impression is that you are putting too much faith in
universal access as a stand-alone solution for the
future and being critical of those who may not be as certain the future
will unfold that way or at least not quickly enough.
I think this makes some of what GW Micro has said strike more nerves for
you than it did for me. Still, I agree that the
company I have also come to trust and admire needs to be careful that
what
is said is accurate. However, we also
have to be open that the future of accessibility could unfold in a
number
of ways depending upon many factors and try
to prepare for any eventuality.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
We live in some interesting times that may affect us for some time to
come. They are also very complex.
On Fri, 3 Sep 2010 22:07:11 -0400, erik burggraaf wrote:
Hi Steve, I've said this before, but maybe it bares repeating. The
point
of the rant was not that apple is doing a better
job than windows in general or GWMicro in particular. This has very
little to do with one thing vs another. The point of
the matter is that GWMicro has published as fact a number of items which
simply are not true in fact, Not only about
apple, but also about Serotech and NV-Access to a lesser extent. Then
they are making contradictory statements
about the future of access technology based on the misinformation they
published. This is bad for the company,
because it damages their credibility, which they have worked for over 20
years to keep high. It's bad for their product
because educated consumers will read what they published, realize it is
wrong, and make future purchasing decisions
based partly on what they perceive to be the decline of window-eyes
development. People will look at all the garbage
in this post and you wouldn't blame them for ignoring all of the actual
factual information that shows window-eyes to be
better in many areas than it's direct competitor. If over a quarter of
the article is just plane wrong, poorly researched and
contradictory, educated consumers will throw out the other 75% if this
is
their first exposure to window-eyes. It's bad for
consumers. Look at the number of people here who appear love
window-eyes
almost as if it were a person.
Uneducated consumers will swallow this article hole and regurgitate it
to
other people and the flow of misinformation will
continue. People making buying decisions based on misinformation is
bad,
whether it leads to increased sales for
GWMicro or not.
One article is not enough to bring GWMicro crashing down around all our
ears, but a public demonstration of sheer
ignorance is not the sort of thing the guys want to be having to deal
with
on a regular basis. We haven't heard anything
from them on this, but I'm assuming something will be done about it at
some point, or that maybe it is already being taken
care of internally.
Best,
Erik Burggraaf
Check out my first ever podcast tutorial, Learn braille using the
braille
box.
Visit http://www.erik-burggraaf.com and click podcasts to read more and
subscribe.
On 2010-09-02, at 10:55 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
Erik,
Even with the note i wrote previously before seeing yours, I believe
you
make some good theoretical points here.
What
I do not think you addressed in your note is the differences between
the
Apple and Microsoft environments.
Because
something may work in one market does not mean it will work well in
the
other. The goal of a universal access
computer out of the box is a worthy one and I don't know how anyone
could disagree with that. Apple seems to be
doing a good job of making it happen. From what I know of the
migration
of Windows, and I am not an insider, I can
see that there could come a time when it might take a less robust
screen
reader to do the job within Windows which
could take fewer resources to support. This could make a cheaper
screen
reader possible or make it something
Microsoft could support, but as one who is completely dependent upon
good screen reader support to do my job, I'd
want to know a lot about what they would propose before feeling
comfortable with it. While I might not have used
the
word "disservice," I feel very much that having a full-featured screen
reader included with Windows at this point
would
not necessarily be in our interest. We do need to address the needs
of
an aging blind population and I don't have all
of
the answers, but I think that we need to be sure that in an effort to
get cheaper accessibility we also don't end up
with
less accessibility. I am not saying Apple necessarily provides less
accessibility, only that we need to keep it in mind
as
we look at what happens with Windows.My opinions, though, are subject
to
watching what Apple does over the next
few years and also how Windows evolves. Things could change.
However,
I would not be happy with GW Micro if
they did not have a business plan that reaches into the future. Even
if
we speculate about possible changes, they
need
to plan on being around to maintain what they are doing today, so
their
responses to these questions should be
expected.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:43:49 -0400, erik burggraaf wrote:
Guys, I tried to keep the below as polite and forthright as
possible,
but it degenerates in places and reading and
rereading, I don't really see the benefit of removing some of the
language that might be considered offensive or
abridging my comments. I really feel this needs to be said, not for
the
purpose of offending, but for the purpose of
taking
what I feel is the right stance.
Hi Mark, this is bad... Very very bad. There are glaring
inaccuracies in this release. I sincerely hope you did not
send it to any public forums other than gw micro customer base. I've
quoted what I want to draw your attention to in
my
comments, but left the entire article below for people to read in it's
entirety.
Article 6: You wrote,
"what incentive would Apple have to make their screen reader work
with
Microsoft Office and what incentive
would
Microsoft have to make their screen reader work with iTunes?"
This Demonstrates a lack of understanding on how the other side
works.
Windows is not mac OS, and mac OS is
not windows. On the mac side, you have a screen reader, but you also
have a fully accessible operating system.
The
libraries and API's used to build programs generate accessible
programs,
which are then read and interpreted by an
accessible operating system, which then sends information to
voiceover... or a talk box... or a TTY machine... Or
whatever. For now, Microsoft has chosen to make office for mac
inaccessible at great pains to themselves. Apple
and
adobe have a love hate relationship, and so adobe products on the mac
are hit and miss for accessibility users and
non
alike. As the system develops though, It will eventually become
impossible to build a program on the mac platform
that
is inaccessible to apples universal access design. As such, all
software written for macs will eventually be
accessible,
whether you are blind, deaf, dyslexic, paraplegic, or have any other
disability. We may have to chase every version
of
ITunes on the windows side, but eventually office for mac will be
accessible whether ms likes it or not, unless they
simply choose to scrap office for mac development before things get to
that stage. We still have a ways to go.
Article Seven: you wrote,
"In addition, GW Micro is the only screen reader manufacturer to
host
and moderate an email discussion list. This
list
is a great resource that allows our customers to discuss technical
issues and questions with GW Micros technical
support team as well others in the Window-Eyes community."
This is incorrect. NVDA developers run their own user support group
exactly like GW Micro's. The lead developer
of
the Espeak software was also a regular contributor when I was there,
and
There should be a brlty developer on there
by
now. Apples accessibility team also monitors the macvisionaries user
group. While they don't usually participate,
hundreds of feature requests that get bandied about the group are
implemented with every new release. I know for a
fact that they are watching that group because they have posted
publicly
there on occasion, and the fact that they
are
usually quiet doesn't mean they are ignoring their customer base. I
believe duxbury systems moderates it's own
groups,
and I'm sure there are others.
Article 9: This made me furious when I read it because it
demonstrates an appalling amount of sheer ignorance.
The
statements are categorically false, and should be retracted
immediately
before they generate well deserved ill feelings
against the company you represent. I'd like to say, I have been an
apple user for 2 and a half years. before that I
was a
very happy window-eyes user, and though I seldom actually use the
product these days, I still keep up my sma, and
my
switch to apple was entirely driven by dissatisfaction with windows,
and
in no way reflects any dissatisfaction with
window-eyes or GWMicro. I still continue to enjoy supporting and
training on window-eyes and I'm confident
recommending it to clients. I'm still pretty mad though. You wrote:
"GW Micro believes that having a free screen reader as part of the
operating system does a disservice to Blind
computer users."
That's an extremely shaky position to be in, and I'll topple you in
a
second. For now, I want to say that if it wasn't
for
governemnt funding, I wouldn't have window-eyes. I bought it well
before the days of the payment plan. Last
Christmas, I bought a brand new operating system from apple including
a
fully functional screen reader for $35
Canadian. A new window-eyes upgrade and a copy of win7 would have
cost
me just over $300 Canadian, $195 for
the
upgrade from WE6 to 7, and $120 for a copy of win7 home premium. not
that I think the window-eyes upgrade was
not
good value for money, but if one doesn't have $300 to spend, then they
just don't have. it. If Ontario's rather dubious
funding system were to vanish tomorrow, the number of blind people
using
mac here would go up 500 times in the
next
year.
"The relatively small size of the screen reader market does not
allow
Microsoft or Apple to invest the amount of
resources that accessibility truly deserves."
This is so non-visionary, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so
inflammatory . Accessibility is not about blind people.
We
do this all the damn time and it's the most selfish stupid thing I've
ever heard. I'm saddened to hear it spewing out of
my
screen reader from a company I respect. OK, you serve blind people,
and
blind people are a small market, especially
blind people who work or go to school or whatever. I mean, most
people
who are blind have macular degeneration
which sets in between the ages of 60 and 70. They still want to use
computers,, but their needs are not extravagant.
In
a world where 1 per sent of the total population is blind, I'm the
freak
of nature who was just born with RP. The odds
against are astronomically high. So, whenever this subject comes up,
it
always saddens me to hear people natter
about
how small the blind community is and all the trials and tribulations
involved in providing accessibility. Hello world, is
anybody listening? I'm going to say something really profound here.
You won't want to miss this. The world, does
not,
revolve, around, blind people. There are, other people, who need,
accessibility, besides, you john blind person.
There
are deaf people out there. Milionds of normal looking people on the
street that you walk by every day have learning
disabilities. There are people with musculature and fine motor
problems., people who don't have all of their limbs, or
maybe they only have two fingers on one hand. The number of
disabilities that inhibit access and the number of
potential users that benefit from a universally accessible design is
limitless. It's not about building a screen reader so
that
apple can sell more computers to blind people, although they are doing
a
phenomenal job of that. It's about building
a
computer that can be used by anyone, regardless of their disability.
When you look at it that way, the economics
make
more sense. GW micro builds stuff for blind people, and that's great.
They do a good job of building stuff for blind
people. But apple is building stuff for everyone, regardless of
disability, and they are doing a good job at it.
"Without a major change in Microsoft or Apples infrastructure,
they
would be ill-prepared to develop a strong and
evolving screen reader as well as provide the type of support that is
often required by screen reader users."
Wrong again. Or at least, if a change was needed, it happened in
apple, and the signs started showing 5 or 6
years
ago. That means the actual change you speak of probably took place
many
years before that. Window-eyes is a
very
good product. Certainly better than it's closest windows counterpart,
but my friend, voiceover is getting to be at least
as
good as window-eyes, and if the position of GWMicro is truly that
apple
will never build a full featured competitive
screen
reader then you had better get your head out of your collective asses
or
the wave is going to sweep this company
away.
Voiceover offers access to the web which is at least as robust as
window-eyes or it's competitor except for adobe
flash
which is mostly adobe's fault. Voiceover offers read-write braille
support via usb and bluetooth for at least 25 braille
displays. Voiceover has a non-proprietary full featured scripting
model
using apple script which is a part of mac OS.
Voiceover even has truly useful features that window-eyes does not yet
have. For example, window-eyes does not
provide full access or as far as I know, any access at all to the
multi-touch trackpad on windows PC's. You can not
use
jesters in window-eyes to control your pc, a feature which many blind
mac users have come to rely on once past the
learning curve.
As far as the support goes, I can take my computer into any apple
store or apple reseller and they will sit down in
front of me and fix my problem. If they don't know what the solution
is, they will look it up. There are a lot of people
supporting apple. Apple hires individuals based on a huge array of
factors, and they generally manage to finddgood
people. It is possible to have a bad tech support experience with
apple, but it's also possible to have the same with
GW, or in deed any company. Support is a hard job. When things
aren't
going your way it can be extremely stressful
for
both the support person and the one being supported. It's important
to
be careful about how you criticize some one
else's support or decry your own. Although I really think GW has very
good support overall, I would hesitate to pick
out
any one company and say, "that one has the best support". Still, I
get
face to face, one on one attention for my
problems and questions from apple. I can have training from the apple
store if I want, and for less than what GW
would
charge. I can't even get GW's training courses here, much as I'd love
to have them. In order to bring the courses
here,
I have to find 5 to 10 people who want the course and have the money
to
pay for it, find a venue to host it, and so
on.
I've read the review of window-eyes training courses. It made me
drool,
but I don't think it's accurate at all to say that
a
mainstream provider can't give blind customers the attention they
need.
"Without competition from screen reader manufacturers like GW Micro
there will be no incentive for Apple or
Microsoft to include a feature-rich and powerful screen reader into
their operating system."
Well I think we've put pay to the fully functioning nonsense.
Competition isn't bad. I'm for sure grateful I had a
choice between jaws and window-eyes back in the day. It's saved me a
lot of frustration. I'm for sure grateful I had
a
choice between mac and windows, cause even though I work a job, I'm
not
exactly the most wealthy guy in the
world,
and I have to watch it. I'm glad the vinux project is doing so well,
and I love looking forward to the new release of
NVDA every year. It would be really tough for any one to come in and
compete with apple though. How do you
beat
some one in the market when they offer a universally accessible
operating system? I guess there is vinux, but it's a
tough sell. Now you are talking around in circles, because first you
say that there's no way a mainstream company
can
build and support a full functioning screen reader, and Then you say
that competition from companies like GW Micro
is
driving microsoft and apple accessibility.. This is ridiculous. You
can not have it both ways. In fact, my info is that
full
accessibility was tried by MS back around the turn of the century, and
it got squashed by the NFB, who incidentally,
did
a huge hack job on Voiceover when Leopard came out and was forced to
print retractions, after users demonstrated
numerous statements made by the organization to be completely false.
Wherefore, no one was interested in mac OS
10
until apple made it interesting, and now it's competitive after many
years of work and revision. Where were GWMicro
and Freedom Scientific back in OS10.1? Serving the 90% windows
community and being paid rather well for doing
so,
while apple took the initiative and built something. So both of these
statements trip over eachother and fall flat on
their
faces.
GWMicro has so many good things to offer blind users, and I'm sorry
that no one else showed up for the show
down; However, If you publish something like this to a wider
community,
then what you have to offer is going to get
lost
amid all the inaccurate, contradictory and inflammatory statements
about
other companies and the blind community.
This is not the way, and I very much hope you will reconsider.
Regards,
Erik Burggraaf
Check out my first ever podcast tutorial, Learn braille using the
braille box.
Visit http://www.erik-burggraaf.com and click podcasts to read more
and subscribe.
On 2010-09-01, at 2:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Earlier this summer, the Information Access Committee invited GW
Micro, Freedom Scientific, Serotek, NVDA and
Apple to participate in the Future of Screen Readers discussion panel
at
the 2010 ACB convention in Phoenix
Arizona.
When the time came for the discussion panel, GW Micro was the only
screen reader manufacturer that showed up to
participate. In fairness, Serotek and NVDA attempted to participate
via
Skype but were unable to do so because of
Internet connectivity issues in the hotel conference area. As for the
others, Freedom Scientific declined to
participate
and Apple did not even acknoweldge the invitation sent by the
Information Access Committee. GW Micro would
like to
take this opportunity to publicly respond to the 10 questions asked of
each participant and you can find the ten
discussion panel questions along with our responses below:
If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original
sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list
and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending
your message to [email protected] so
the
entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You
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If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original
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and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending
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GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You
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If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
only. If your reply would benefit others on the list
and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending
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message to [email protected] so the
entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
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If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
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