Eric's right on the money.
I have to jump through hoops to install windows on a pc by myself,
and forget about access to the bios.
I could install a mac unsighted, without any extra fiddling around,
and also take my usb hard-drive to my friends house, and run my stuff
on their pc.
and run windows natively too if I want.
There's gonna be a mac in my future.
I've never been the first guy on the block to adopt new technology,
and things can change in a heart beat,
but so far, I've been very impressed by what's going on in the
industry over there, not to mention, protools becomming accessible.
that's huge for us studio types.
At 12:38 PM 9/2/2010, John Panarese wrote:
This was extremely well written and well thought out. I am a
Window-Eyes user, but also have moved to the Mac. Read Eric's
comments carefully, as they are quite accurate and on the mark in
my opinion. I think the article does more of a disservice than
anything else and should be reconsidered, but, of course, that is
not my place to decide.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, [email protected]
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com
AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA,
PREMIER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS,
DUXBURY, SEROTEK AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED
AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
On Sep 2, 2010, at 12:43 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
>> Guys, I tried to keep the below as polite and forthright as
possible, but it degenerates in places and reading and rereading, I
don't really see the benefit of removing some of the language that
might be considered offensive or abridging my comments. I really
feel this needs to be said, not for the purpose of offending, but
for the purpose of taking what I feel is the right stance.
>>
>> Hi Mark, this is bad... Very very bad. There are glaring
inaccuracies in this release. I sincerely hope you did not send it
to any public forums other than gw micro customer base. I've
quoted what I want to draw your attention to in my comments, but
left the entire article below for people to read in it's entirety.
>>
>> Article 6: You wrote,
>> "what incentive would Apple have to make their screen reader
work with Microsoft Office and what incentive would Microsoft have
to make their screen reader work with iTunes?"
>> This Demonstrates a lack of understanding on how the other side
works. Windows is not mac OS, and mac OS is not windows. On the
mac side, you have a screen reader, but you also have a fully
accessible operating system. The libraries and API's used to build
programs generate accessible programs, which are then read and
interpreted by an accessible operating system, which then sends
information to voiceover... or a talk box... or a TTY machine...
Or whatever. For now, Microsoft has chosen to make office for mac
inaccessible at great pains to themselves. Apple and adobe have a
love hate relationship, and so adobe products on the mac are hit
and miss for accessibility users and non alike. As the system
develops though, It will eventually become impossible to build a
program on the mac platform that is inaccessible to apples
universal access design. As such, all software written for macs
will eventually be accessible, whether you are blind, deaf,
dyslexic, paraplegic, or have any other disability. We may have to
chase every version of ITunes on the windows side, but eventually
office for mac will be accessible whether ms likes it or not,
unless they simply choose to scrap office for mac development
before things get to that stage. We still have a ways to go.
>>>
>> Article Seven: you wrote,
>> "In addition, GW Micro is the only screen reader manufacturer to
host and moderate an email discussion list. This list is a great
resource that allows our customers to discuss technical issues and
questions with GW Micro's technical support team as well others in
the Window-Eyes community."
>> This is incorrect. NVDA developers run their own user support
group exactly like GW Micro's. The lead developer of the Espeak
software was also a regular contributor when I was there, and There
should be a brlty developer on there by now. Apples accessibility
team also monitors the macvisionaries user group. While they don't
usually participate, hundreds of feature requests that get bandied
about the group are implemented with every new release. I know for
a fact that they are watching that group because they have posted
publicly there on occasion, and the fact that they are usually
quiet doesn't mean they are ignoring their customer base. I
believe duxbury systems moderates it's own groups, and I'm sure
there are others.
>>
>> Article 9: This made me furious when I read it because it
demonstrates an appalling amount of sheer ignorance. The
statements are categorically false, and should be retracted
immediately before they generate well deserved ill feelings against
the company you represent. I'd like to say, I have been an apple
user for 2 and a half years. before that I was a very happy
window-eyes user, and though I seldom actually use the product
these days, I still keep up my sma, and my switch to apple was
entirely driven by dissatisfaction with windows, and in no way
reflects any dissatisfaction with window-eyes or GWMicro. I still
continue to enjoy supporting and training on window-eyes and I'm
confident recommending it to clients. I'm still pretty mad though. You wrote:
>>> "GW Micro believes that having a free screen reader as part of
the operating system does a disservice to Blind computer users."
>>>
>> That's an extremely shaky position to be in, and I'll topple you
in a second. For now, I want to say that if it wasn't for
governemnt funding, I wouldn't have window-eyes. I bought it well
before the days of the payment plan. Last Christmas, I bought a
brand new operating system from apple including a fully functional
screen reader for $35 Canadian. A new window-eyes upgrade and a
copy of win7 would have cost me just over $300 Canadian, $195 for
the upgrade from WE6 to 7, and $120 for a copy of win7 home
premium. not that I think the window-eyes upgrade was not good
value for money, but if one doesn't have $300 to spend, then they
just don't have. it. If Ontario's rather dubious funding system
were to vanish tomorrow, the number of blind people using mac here
would go up 500 times in the next year.
>>> "The relatively small size of the screen reader market does not
allow Microsoft or Apple to invest the amount of resources that
accessibility truly deserves."
>>>
>> This is so non-visionary, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so
inflammatory . Accessibility is not about blind people. We do
this all the damn time and it's the most selfish stupid thing I've
ever heard. I'm saddened to hear it spewing out of my screen
reader from a company I respect. OK, you serve blind people, and
blind people are a small market, especially blind people who work
or go to school or whatever. I mean, most people who are blind
have macular degeneration which sets in between the ages of 60 and
70. They still want to use computers,, but their needs are not
extravagant. In a world where 1 per sent of the total population
is blind, I'm the freak of nature who was just born with RP. The
odds against are astronomically high. So, whenever this subject
comes up, it always saddens me to hear people natter about how
small the blind community is and all the trials and tribulations
involved in providing accessibility. Hello world, is anybody
listening? I'm going to say something really profound here. You
won't want to miss this. The world, does not, revolve, around,
blind people. There are, other people, who need, accessibility,
besides, you john blind person. There are deaf people out
there. Milionds of normal looking people on the street that you
walk by every day have learning disabilities. There are people
with musculature and fine motor problems., people who don't have
all of their limbs, or maybe they only have two fingers on one
hand. The number of disabilities that inhibit access and the
number of potential users that benefit from a universally
accessible design is limitless. It's not about building a screen
reader so that apple can sell more computers to blind people,
although they are doing a phenomenal job of that. It's about
building a computer that can be used by anyone, regardless of their
disability. When you look at it that way, the economics make more
sense. GW micro builds stuff for blind people, and that's
great. They do a good job of building stuff for blind people. But
apple is building stuff for everyone, regardless of disability, and
they are doing a good job at it.
>>
>>> "Without a major change in Microsoft or Apple's infrastructure,
they would be ill-prepared to develop a strong and evolving screen
reader as well as provide the type of support that is often
required by screen reader users."
>>>
>> Wrong again. Or at least, if a change was needed, it happened
in apple, and the signs started showing 5 or 6 years ago. That
means the actual change you speak of probably took place many years
before that. Window-eyes is a very good product. Certainly better
than it's closest windows counterpart, but my friend, voiceover is
getting to be at least as good as window-eyes, and if the position
of GWMicro is truly that apple will never build a full featured
competitive screen reader then you had better get your head out of
your collective asses or the wave is going to sweep this company
away. Voiceover offers access to the web which is at least as
robust as window-eyes or it's competitor except for adobe flash
which is mostly adobe's fault. Voiceover offers read-write braille
support via usb and bluetooth for at least 25 braille
displays. Voiceover has a non-proprietary full featured scripting
model using apple script which is a part of mac OS. Voiceover even
has truly useful features that window-eyes does not yet have. For
example, window-eyes does not provide full access or as far as I
know, any access at all to the multi-touch trackpad on windows
PC's. You can not use jesters in window-eyes to control your pc, a
feature which many blind mac users have come to rely on once past
the learning curve.
>> As far as the support goes, I can take my computer into any
apple store or apple reseller and they will sit down in front of me
and fix my problem. If they don't know what the solution is, they
will look it up. There are a lot of people supporting
apple. Apple hires individuals based on a huge array of factors,
and they generally manage to finddgood people. It is possible to
have a bad tech support experience with apple, but it's also
possible to have the same with GW, or in deed any company. Support
is a hard job. When things aren't going your way it can be
extremely stressful for both the support person and the one being
supported. It's important to be careful about how you criticize
some one else's support or decry your own. Although I really think
GW has very good support overall, I would hesitate to pick out any
one company and say, "that one has the best support". Still, I get
face to face, one on one attention for my problems and questions
from apple. I can have training from the apple store if I want,
and for less than what GW would charge. I can't even get GW's
training courses here, much as I'd love to have them. In order to
bring the courses here, I have to find 5 to 10 people who want the
course and have the money to pay for it, find a venue to host it,
and so on. I've read the review of window-eyes training
courses. It made me drool, but I don't think it's accurate at all
to say that a mainstream provider can't give blind customers the
attention they need.
>>> "Without competition from screen reader manufacturers like GW
Micro there will be no incentive for Apple or Microsoft to include
a feature-rich and powerful screen reader into their operating system."
>>>
>> Well I think we've put pay to the fully functioning
nonsense. Competition isn't bad. I'm for sure grateful I had a
choice between jaws and window-eyes back in the day. It's saved me
a lot of frustration. I'm for sure grateful I had a choice between
mac and windows, cause even though I work a job, I'm not exactly
the most wealthy guy in the world, and I have to watch it. I'm
glad the vinux project is doing so well, and I love looking forward
to the new release of NVDA every year. It would be really tough
for any one to come in and compete with apple though. How do you
beat some one in the market when they offer a universally
accessible operating system? I guess there is vinux, but it's a
tough sell. Now you are talking around in circles, because first
you say that there's no way a mainstream company can build and
support a full functioning screen reader, and Then you say that
competition from companies like GW Micro is driving microsoft and
apple accessibility.. This is ridiculous. You can not have it
both ways. In fact, my info is that full accessibility was tried
by MS back around the turn of the century, and it got squashed by
the NFB, who incidentally, did a huge hack job on Voiceover when
Leopard came out and was forced to print retractions, after users
demonstrated numerous statements made by the organization to be
completely false. Wherefore, no one was interested in mac OS 10
until apple made it interesting, and now it's competitive after
many years of work and revision. Where were GWMicro and Freedom
Scientific back in OS10.1? Serving the 90% windows community and
being paid rather well for doing so, while apple took the
initiative and built something. So both of these statements trip
over eachother and fall flat on their faces.
>>>
>>> GWMicro has so many good things to offer blind users, and I'm
sorry that no one else showed up for the show down; However, If you
publish something like this to a wider community, then what you
have to offer is going to get lost amid all the inaccurate,
contradictory and inflammatory statements about other companies and
the blind community. This is not the way, and I very much hope you
will reconsider.
>>>
>>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Erik Burggraaf
>> Check out my first ever podcast tutorial, Learn braille using
the braille box.
>> Visit http://www.erik-burggraaf.com and click podcasts to read
more and subscribe.
>>
>> On 2010-09-01, at 2:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Earlier this summer, the Information Access Committee invited
GW Micro, Freedom Scientific, Serotek, NVDA and Apple to
participate in the Future of Screen Readers discussion panel at the
2010 ACB convention in Phoenix Arizona. When the time came for the
discussion panel, GW Micro was the only screen reader manufacturer
that showed up to participate. In fairness, Serotek and NVDA
attempted to participate via Skype but were unable to do so because
of Internet connectivity issues in the hotel conference area. As
for the others, Freedom Scientific declined to participate and
Apple did not even acknoweldge the invitation sent by the
Information Access Committee. GW Micro would like to take this
opportunity to publicly respond to the 10 questions asked of each
participant and you can find the ten discussion panel questions
along with our responses below:
>>>
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