Hi, I think you've got the message across... As for the potentials of CE6.0, the users over there have "discovered" the beginnings of this new potential, namely "ability to send and receive files via Bluetooth" which later turned out not to work, some odd printer config files for different languages and ability to turn off Javascript on websites. What they are seeing over there is essentially "old interface on top of new framework." Almost same as Sense family if migrating to Linux, but it takes time and a large number of tests to make sure that the underlying structure is different yet the feel i.e. the interface of Sense family, or the software "cap" is the same to provide a more smooth transition. Upgrading to Windows CE 6.0 is almost a grand departure from how we used to think of nk.exe, and migrating to Linux is a "fundamental change" that requires endless testing and user verification. Sounds familiar? Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Alex Hall [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [GWN] O/T Upgrade to Linux So, what it comes down to is this: 1. Windows Mobile is not the same as Windows CE. CE is used by most notetakers (SenseNotes, brailleNotes, and PacMates). However, hw and hims have custom interfaces running on top of ce (keysoft for hw, and the Sense interface for hims). So, saying that Windows Mobile 7 is due to be released soon is true, but has no bearing on the Sense products since wm7 is still based on CE6. What hims users want is an upgrade to ce6, like hw did in the bn apex (released late last year). 2. A port to Linux may be possible, but may be more difficult than a port to ce6 (speculation on my part). Either one would solve the process limit, but may not immediately introduce new features. Just as with the apex, ce6 has a lot more potential than ce4 or ce5, but that potential must be realized by the developers. The apex, even though it runs ce6 compared to previous generations' ce4.2, currently does nothing different than any other bn, except that it runs faster, but that is a result of hardware, not software. HW must now take advantage of the new opportunities, just as hims would if they were to upgrade. 3. A developer kit is also possible, but not an automatic result. Hims could still hide their interfaces to hardware, namely the way they capture braille input and display braille or speak messages. Without these components, nothing will run. Of course, they could also either open everything up or write a converter so that most apps would run just fine... Who knows? Anyway, there's my take on things, sorry in advance for any inaccuracies. On 7/18/10, Joseph Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, > That's a good observation. Few things: > In my thoughts, Braille Sense family under Linux would allow more than > developers to contribute applications. Using the open source advantage, HIMS > might come up with more useful apps, provide a useful IDE that will run > under Braille Sense itself and other things could be done. The only > potential worry would be a slight possibility of malware floating around the > Sense family as a result, but if the vulnerability that this malware targets > is known, the programmers could try and come up with a security update > within days to fix this issue. Other than that, I believe it could be done, > but the compatibility needs to be addressed between the "old code" and "new > interface" - as we have seen somewhere else before. > As for Windows Mobile interface, it is essentially an user interface that > runs on top of Windows CE kernel. Windows Mobile 6 runs under Windows CE > 5.2, and Windows Mobile 7 is rumored to run under Windows CE 6.0 R3. WM7 is > no longer called Windows Mobile by Microsoft's definitions now - it is now > called Windows Phone 7, due to be released later this year. As for > accessibility of this interface from blindness perspective, I expect the > reports to come out by end of this year or early next year. However, the > development of Android and other embedded OS family is giving MS a major > worry though. > In connection with Braille Sense, we are dealing with a Windows Mobile like > interface that runs on top of Windows CE 5.0 kernel. On the far below layer > is the hardware itself, followed by the firmware for the hardware, then the > operating system, drivers and finally, the user programs. The Braille Sense > suite is (if I understood the thing right) composed of mini programs (or > modules) that are interconnected by a Task Manager program that provides the > program Menu list. Each of the "programs" is either a link to a particular > executable for that program, or a jump instruction (or a switch statement) > that will jump to that particular moduole of the Sense suite. From what I > read on this list, it appears to be the former case. In Korean builds, the > presence of "menu Manager" that blocks certain programs suggests that the > Sense suite is composed of multiple .exe executables that are connected with > the OS to provide multitasking. This is also the reason why there is a seven > program limit on the Sense product due to the fact that Windows CE 5.0 > limits running up to thirty-two programs or processes at once. If we count > the number of possible processes that will start when the Braille Sense > resets - nk.exe, gwes.exe, services.exe, filesys.exe and so on, we can come > up with potential slots for running twenty programs or less. However, if we > add this variable to our operating equation, there would exist yet another > limit that Windows CE 6.0 solved: how to manage memory better, especially > virtual memory? > Thus, depending on the answer to our "big question above" - whether Sense > suite is composed of multiple .exe files or just single executable, we can > come up with two or three "unforeseen" and "hidden" limitations: > * If the Sense suite is composed of multiple .exe files, we can reach a > potential limit of running less and less programs when we use more > "services" and processes, such as using Media Player, Internet Explorer > (when the web browser programs calls it to do its bidding) and so forth. > Thus when the maximum is reached, the Sense interface (mostly towards OS > calls) will alert the user that there is no more programs to run (in order > to avoid using all 32 process slots, if I understood the thing correctly). > * If the suite is composed only of one file, there is a risk of running low > on memory, specifically virtual memory (as Windows CE 5.0 and earlier > supports only 32 MB of virtual memory). All user programs, including Sense > suite, shares a common 2 GB of user addresses virtual memory location which > is divided into equal chunks of virtual memory size.--Source: Microsoft > article on architecture of Windows CE 5.0 versus Windows Embedded CE 6.0. > Thus, too much use of memory by one program would slow down the response of > a program. > The universal integral here is memory management issues with tight memory > space, using some parts of RAM for storage and so forth. Both increasing and > decreasing RAM proportions between running programs and storage has > probability of a system locking up or not responding to user requests. > Increasing RAM would mean less and less download and storage size, and > decreasing memory means that programs would not have space to store data and > its code. > > If you want, I'll forward your notes to Blind Programming list so that more > experienced guys can answer your queries regarding this one. I'm just a > student interested in these sort of things... If I lost you, my apologies... > Cheers, > joseph > > -----Original Message----- > From: erik burggraaf [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 4:10 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [GWN] O/T Upgrade to Linux > > Hi Joe, > > I don't have experience with the products you mentioned, but I would be > hugely in favour of a linux port to the BSP. > > The vaunted new upgrade to braillesense did not usher in windows mobile 6, > and even if it did, windows mobile 7 is right around the corner, and the > roomers are as bad as it is possible to be. Winmobile 5 is painfully far > behind the hardware curve to begin with. > > They could easily keep the interface more or less the same from a user > perspective, only add features that users want such as open development kits > and wireless connectivity upgrades. > > After some heavy duty research one of my prospective clients has nearly > chosen the apex over the braille sense, and I can't honestly gainsay her, > even though I love the braille sense and really believe it's a good product. > It is just simply losing it's edge, and maybe linux firmware would > revitalize it. > > Best, > > Erik Burggraaf > User support consultant, > Website: http://www.erik-burggraaf.com > Toll-free: 888-255-5194 > > On 2010-07-18, at 6:39 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> So, this post is purely brainstorming. If you're more into practical, >> please delete now. *grin* >> >> I was just wondering, and this would be a great question for Joseph, how >> feasible it would be to switch the BSP to Linux? I'm curious because >> yesterday I came across information about the Braille+, and even though it >> is a PDA in the truest sense of the word in that I don't think the >> manufacturer meant for consumers to write long documents or do extensive > web >> surfing, it does boast features that have been previously recommended for >> the Sense products like an RSS reader. It also features some cool little >> features like an Internet radio tuner, but best of all, the platform is > open >> source. Though it seems people have mostly developed games for the > product, >> it's feasible that developers could write financial aps, enhanced word >> processing, etc. >> >> Am I off my rocker here? I don't know how much success the Alva product > had >> among consumers, but it seems like something somewhat comparable to the >> Android phenomenon of a user-driven development. I wonder if switching > out >> Windows CE for Linux would be a terrible inconvenience. >> >> At any rate, just a thought, and if anyone has had experience with the > Icon >> or Braille+, please drop me a note off-list. I'd love to ask you a few >> questions. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: >> >> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv >> > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3013 - Release Date: 07/18/10 > 06:35:00 > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > -- Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from GMail website) [email protected]; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3013 - Release Date: 07/18/10 06:35:00 If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
