Hi Peter and list, I have changed the subject to better reflect what we are talking about. In my opinion and based on tests conducted on other devices of its kind, I'd say it is perfectly possible to have CE6 under Braille Sense family. If HIMS does upgrade to Windows Embedded CE 6.0, we would get some needy fixes and long standing issue of limited multitasking under seven programs would be fixed. Still, there are some problems and compatibility issues to work with, as other lists have found out which the company over there has increased their response emails - I'll discuss the chief tech reason why it had to be like that much later - upon your request, as it talks about frameworks, executables and upgrade speed and mechanisms. First, let's discuss about how current devices can stand CE6 and possible problem scenarios. The first issue would be shortage on Flash ROM space on some units. In other words, not all units will be able to upgrade to CE6 (if HIMS is planning on it). The unit that is most likely to not take advantage of this, of course, is Braille Sense original which has smaller memory. Voice Sense and BSP family would have no problem, seeing that it has enough memory to work with to burn the new nk.bin and run the actual OS. Another problem or rather an advantage is the change in architecture and operations under Windows CE 6.0, particularly when it comes to memory management. Some application structure and operations are changed e.g. things that runs under kernel space (which has access to everything) wil run as DLL's (Dynamic Linked Library). This means that there will be fewer programs when the Braille Sense family boots up. Another change is the increased process memory and slots. There is no more "two 32's" - running up to 32 processes (programs) at once with each of them using only 32 MB of virtual memory (a type of memory mechanism where the program thinks it has larger memory space when it is not). The new limit under CE6 is 32,768 processes with each of them given its own 2 GB of virtual memory space to work with. This is the reason why people on another list is reporting less crashes when browsing the web. However, even if we upgrade to CE6, some important functionalities will not be there, such as AES support. For those who are techies and want to find out more on CE6 and CE5, go to: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee504813.aspx For those who were on another list would recognize that I posted an article just like this several years ago, which the speculation in there did turn out to be true few years later. Hope this was simple enough - my apologies for using some tech words here... Cheers, Joseph P.S. And I don't work for HIMS - just a student interested in these sort of things...
-----Original Message----- From: peter greco [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [GWN] O/T Upgrade to Linux Hey Alex How realistic is HIMS products being upgraded to c e 6? Would it need for example new hardware, that is, current note-takers couldn't have c e 6? Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Hall <[email protected] To: [email protected] Date sent: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:44:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [GWN] O/T Upgrade to Linux So, what it comes down to is this: 1. Windows Mobile is not the same as Windows CE. CE is used by most notetakers (SenseNotes, brailleNotes, and PacMates). However, hw and hims have custom interfaces running on top of ce (keysoft for hw, and the Sense interface for hims). So, saying that Windows Mobile 7 is due to be released soon is true, but has no bearing on the Sense products since wm7 is still based on CE6. What hims users want is an upgrade to ce6, like hw did in the bn apex (released late last year). 2. A port to Linux may be possible, but may be more difficult than a port to ce6 (speculation on my part). Either one would solve the process limit, but may not immediately introduce new features. Just as with the apex, ce6 has a lot more potential than ce4 or ce5, but that potential must be realized by the developers. The apex, even though it runs ce6 compared to previous generations' ce4.2, currently does nothing different than any other bn, except that it runs faster, but that is a result of hardware, not software. HW must now take advantage of the new opportunities, just as hims would if they were to upgrade. 3. A developer kit is also possible, but not an automatic result. Hims could still hide their interfaces to hardware, namely the way they capture braille input and display braille or speak messages. Without these components, nothing will run. Of course, they could also either open everything up or write a converter so that most apps would run just fine... Who knows? Anyway, there's my take on things, sorry in advance for any inaccuracies. On 7/18/10, Joseph Lee <[email protected]> wrote: Hi, That's a good observation. Few things: In my thoughts, Braille Sense family under Linux would allow more than developers to contribute applications. Using the open source advantage, HIMS might come up with more useful apps, provide a useful IDE that will run under Braille Sense itself and other things could be done. The only potential worry would be a slight possibility of malware floating around the Sense family as a result, but if the vulnerability that this malware targets is known, the programmers could try and come up with a security update within days to fix this issue. Other than that, I believe it could be done, but the compatibility needs to be addressed between the "old code" and "new interface" - as we have seen somewhere else before. As for Windows Mobile interface, it is essentially an user interface that runs on top of Windows CE kernel. Windows Mobile 6 runs under Windows CE 5.2, and Windows Mobile 7 is rumored to run under Windows CE 6.0 R3. WM7 is no longer called Windows Mobile by Microsoft's definitions now - it is now called Windows Phone 7, due to be released later this year. As for accessibility of this interface from blindness perspective, I expect the reports to come out by end of this year or early next year. However, the development of Android and other embedded OS family is giving MS a major worry though. In connection with Braille Sense, we are dealing with a Windows Mobile like interface that runs on top of Windows CE 5.0 kernel. On the far below layer is the hardware itself, followed by the firmware for the hardware, then the operating system, drivers and finally, the user programs. The Braille Sense suite is (if I understood the thing right) composed of mini programs (or modules) that are interconnected by a Task Manager program that provides the program Menu list. Each of the "programs" is either a link to a particular executable for that program, or a jump instruction (or a switch statement) that will jump to that particular moduole of the Sense suite. >From what I read on this list, it appears to be the former case. In Korean builds, the presence of "menu Manager" that blocks certain programs suggests that the Sense suite is composed of multiple .exe executables that are connected with the OS to provide multitasking. This is also the reason why there is a seven program limit on the Sense product due to the fact that Windows CE 5.0 limits running up to thirty-two programs or processes at once. If we count the number of possible processes that will start when the Braille Sense resets - nk.exe, gwes.exe, services.exe, filesys.exe and so on, we can come up with potential slots for running twenty programs or less. However, if we add this variable to our operating equation, there would exist yet another limit that Windows CE 6.0 solved: how to manage memory better, especially virtual memory? Thus, depending on the answer to our "big question above" - whether Sense suite is composed of multiple .exe files or just single executable, we can come up with two or three "unforeseen" and "hidden" limitations: * If the Sense suite is composed of multiple .exe files, we can reach a potential limit of running less and less programs when we use more "services" and processes, such as using Media Player, Internet Explorer (when the web browser programs calls it to do its bidding) and so forth. Thus when the maximum is reached, the Sense interface (mostly towards OS calls) will alert the user that there is no more programs to run (in order to avoid using all 32 process slots, if I understood the thing correctly). * If the suite is composed only of one file, there is a risk of running low on memory, specifically virtual memory (as Windows CE 5.0 and earlier supports only 32 MB of virtual memory). All user programs, including Sense suite, shares a common 2 GB of user addresses virtual memory location which is divided into equal chunks of virtual memory size.--Source: Microsoft article on architecture of Windows CE 5.0 versus Windows Embedded CE 6.0. Thus, too much use of memory by one program would slow down the response of a program. The universal integral here is memory management issues with tight memory space, using some parts of RAM for storage and so forth. Both increasing and decreasing RAM proportions between running programs and storage has probability of a system locking up or not responding to user requests. Increasing RAM would mean less and less download and storage size, and decreasing memory means that programs would not have space to store data and its code. If you want, I'll forward your notes to Blind Programming list so that more experienced guys can answer your queries regarding this one. I'm just a student interested in these sort of things... If I lost you, my apologies... Cheers, joseph -----Original Message----- From: erik burggraaf [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 4:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [GWN] O/T Upgrade to Linux Hi Joe, I don't have experience with the products you mentioned, but I would be hugely in favour of a linux port to the BSP. The vaunted new upgrade to braillesense did not usher in windows mobile 6, and even if it did, windows mobile 7 is right around the corner, and the roomers are as bad as it is possible to be. Winmobile 5 is painfully far behind the hardware curve to begin with. They could easily keep the interface more or less the same from a user perspective, only add features that users want such as open development kits and wireless connectivity upgrades. After some heavy duty research one of my prospective clients has nearly chosen the apex over the braille sense, and I can't honestly gainsay her, even though I love the braille sense and really believe it's a good product. It is just simply losing it's edge, and maybe linux firmware would revitalize it. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Website: http://www.erik-burggraaf.com Toll-free: 888-255-5194 On 2010-07-18, at 6:39 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: Hello all, So, this post is purely brainstorming. If you're more into practical, please delete now. *grin* I was just wondering, and this would be a great question for Joseph, how feasible it would be to switch the BSP to Linux? I'm curious because yesterday I came across information about the Braille+, and even though it is a PDA in the truest sense of the word in that I don't think the manufacturer meant for consumers to write long documents or do extensive web surfing, it does boast features that have been previously recommended for the Sense products like an RSS reader. It also features some cool little features like an Internet radio tuner, but best of all, the platform is open source. Though it seems people have mostly developed games for the product, it's feasible that developers could write financial aps, enhanced word processing, etc. Am I off my rocker here? I don't know how much success the Alva product had among consumers, but it seems like something somewhat comparable to the Android phenomenon of a user-driven development. I wonder if switching out Windows CE for Linux would be a terrible inconvenience. At any rate, just a thought, and if anyone has had experience with the Icon or Braille+, please drop me a note off-list. I'd love to ask you a few questions. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3013 - Release Date: 07/18/10 06:35:00 If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv -- Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from GMail website) [email protected]; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3013 - Release Date: 07/18/10 06:35:00 If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
