How about we check a little of the FUD first and actually hear the counter-opinion before we vote and at least maintain the perception that we're doing this with open minds?
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:59 AM, Matthias Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > instead of yet another revert-commit-revert fight, here's a call for a > vote on the matter of using the default OS widgets (buttons, dropdowns, > etc.) or whether to style them via CSS. RandyWalker shouldn't have reverted it until after the vote was completed, BTW. Up until that point there had been no organized consensus that countered their attractiveness. The problems I have with styled widgets: > > - The styled buttons look bad in Chrome/Chromium, Safari 3, and likely > other WebKit browsers, due to the lack of antialiasing on rounded > borders. I haven't even checked in IE. It looks fine to me in Safari 3 on both Windows and OS X: http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-safari.png In fact, it looks identical to Firefox: http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-firefox.png We don't support IE in the admin, but they would simply appear as normal square buttons with the gradient and border: http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-ie7.png If we don't support IE, how can we complain that it doesn't look good in Chrome? It's Chrome's fault there's no antialiasing - there's nothing we can do until they add that feature. It's hardly the only thing screwed up in Chrome, and I happen to think it still looks decent: http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-chrome.png - State transitions are far too subtle with the current styling. The > hover can barely be made out, for example. This is obviously going to vary with the quality of your monitor and its contrast settings (it was clear enough to me when designing it), but the current styling was not set in stone, it was just a quick change that everyone on IRC at the time liked. - The usability is worse than unstyled buttons, because people know > their OS widgets and know how they look like and what behavior to expect > from them. There is something to be said for this point, but I think people are hiding behind it blindly for the lack of a better reason and because they haven't taken the time to actually think through the alternative. I also don't think changing the button style significantly impacts the user's ability to recognize the function of the object. In fact, I think the ability to more finely hone the message of each button is improved. Colors speak volumes - having the 'delete' button include red somehow would greatly improve the understanding of its function, as red and green are basic colors users have already associated with certain actions and consequences. Using non-OS-standard styles allows us the ability to customize the interface in ways which harness user understanding outside the browser, and allows us to do it on any platform. Can you honestly tell me that this (although hastily done and a bit over the top) doesn't convey more information about the action being performed than the standard button? http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-reddelete.png You may like the buttons on OS X (I don't), but there are users of other platforms out there. There are also those of us who regularly switch between platforms and would appreciate a little aesthetic unity. I would also like to point out that the dropbutton concept in no way integrates with the OS. It's a button and a select drop-down merged together, yet it shares no elements of either. How is that particularly intuitive to the user? While working on the new buttons on IRC, we also discussed changing the look of drop-buttons so they more properly emulate their default counterparts to convey a more clear purpose of their intent and to match the newly styled buttons. Again, unifying the entire design so we don't have big ugly black dropboxes all over the page. Can you really tell me that it wouldn't look better using the button style, something like this: http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-dropbox.png Even the almighty Apple has done the exact same thing with me.com [1] and the Apple Store [2] - they replaced not only the button, but also the checkbox with a custom control. Since they designed the original OS X widgets and are considered *the* UI company, surely there's something to be said for the fact that they chose not to use them on their own sites. In fact, I would say that Apple's use trumps any 3rd party UI "assessments" (like the one Khaled links to). [1]: http://dump.chrismeller.com/dc7ea1853be03c3bbc450cd80e11d250.png [2]: http://dump.chrismeller.com/47daa54fd7a9196d584e049e8695e7c4.png - Lastly, I don't think they fit in with the rest of the admin > (different border radius, different color, different gradient, etc.) How can you say they don't fit the rest of the admin? The gradient colors are nearly identical to the page and box background colors. The border is nearly identical to the shade of gray we use for text all over the place. The different border radius is because they're different elements. Half the argument here is that they're buttons and shouldn't look like everything else... well, should they or shouldn't they? By making them slightly more subtle, we also prevent things like this abomination from looking so horrible: Buttons: http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-comments.png No Buttons: http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-windows.png and http://dump.chrismeller.com/habari_buttons-osx.png > The only pro argument I could see: > > - Make Habari look consistent across platforms. Doesn't resonate with me > because I don't think Habari should try to appear as a separate > platform. For me, Habari is an app. > I disagree. I regularly use Habari on both OS X and Windows, and would appreciate it looking the same on both platforms. Currently all our other input elements are styled heavily, buttons are the only ones left untouched. Why are they different? If you can visually indicate to the user that this modified text box is a text box and they have no problem comprehending that, why is it different for buttons? It's not... I'd like everyone to re-vote after having read my arguments. Also, please take a minute or two to explain why. "It's ugly" and "It should never be done" aren't arguments that help to change my opinion, they just override it. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
