RE: [Hardhats-members] Re: MDC/MUG Revival - Just do it

A. Forrey Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:39:16 -0800

There are some important points that have been illuminated by this thread about M being "old". Some of these points are historic in the M community but which can be addressed and improved so that the M attributes can be more objectively recognized. The education of individuals skilled in MUMPS needs to be addressed so that a reasonable market for Suppliers of those skills (programmers) can be visible to potential Acquirers of M system components. This is essential to a robust market and we in the M Community have taken for granted too long. However, these skills need to be seen as part of M's ability to utilize all of the best recommended Life Cycle processes and that M programmers have these skills also. This is the key to modern information systems engineering and those in the VA laedership will have to recognize this fact. Their CoreFLs fiasco's refleect what happens when they ignore these principles. The M community needs, independently of the VA to depict how historically how waht the Va accomplished had to do with their use of thes principles and how their accopmplishment help get those principles recognized. That may be historic but cant be labelled "old" and they need to know why it isnt the age of the technology that reflects senility but rather the attitudes of the users. That said, the new "MUG/MTA" needs to press ahead with an aggressive program that includes hosting a revitalized MDC to bring back up to date the M standard and keep it that way while also focusing on the educational skills/knowledge areas need by a "M System Engineer - MSE" for comprehensive contribution to the whole Life Cycle.

I would ask Terry to what extent NE MUG could draw on John Glaser to help develop the full Strategic and an Tactical perspectives to create this list of "Competencies" for the MSE. We have individuals here who can and will contribute to this effort but NE MUG seems a useful vehicle for getting aggressive on this challenge. Waiting for Godaot will never help. I will keep at Rick Marshall here to orchestrate the contribution from World VistA. I also believe that Wolfgang can also make a major contribution in spite of his "retired" status, as can many others.


On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Sowinski, Richard J. wrote:

I think what has been glazed over so far in regard to VA leadership's
arguments on the death of M are the following.

1. Leadership's position: No M programmers.

  The truth is, the VA always grew their own via in-house training. It was
very easy to
  grow their own, because people with any background in computer science or
engineering
  can become production-level competent in a matter of weeks. Folks without
a strong
  theoretical background may take a bit longer, but M is still easier to
learn than just
  about any other computer language.

2. Leadership's position: No MUG.

  How have they supported MUG ? At the last MUG meeting I went to in San
Diego, most of
  the VA people self-funded their trip there. There were no speakers or
breakout session
  leaders from the the National VA development organization.

3. Leadership's position: M is old technology.

  Yes, old but good, hardware independent, and evolving.

4. Leadership's position: Go to Oracle.

  How does this promote vendor independence ?

Finally, none of this new "rehosted" stuff has hit the streets yet. It
remains to be seen
if any of it works, and how well it can be supported in the field.

There have been no cost comparisons or justifications, so that side of the
equation seems to be completely
disregarded.

Another CoreFLs scale disaster would certainly set back the "rehosting"
efforts, and would
(hopefully) cause some leaders to rethink their positions.

I am not a prophet either, but I am a computer scientist, and I think I can
see that things
are rather chaotic now, and there is not alot of clarity in "the vision".
Or, if there is,
it hasn't been articulated very well.

But, as Rick says "we'll see".


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard G. DAVIS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Re: MDC/MUG Revival - Just do it


Rick's "letter" to Kevin fails on only one small point...  ...it is not
presented in a forum that accords it the distinctive position it deserves.

So, I urge you all to set aside a day in your week, any day will do, and
read only this letter.  Struggle with it, wrestle with it, meditate and put
it aside for another week.  Continue that devotion far into the future and
be ever mindful of the gathering illumination that you will enjoy.

Regards,

Richard.
--

From: "Frederick D. S. Marshall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: WorldVistA
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:29:04 -0800
To: Hardhats <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Hardhats-members] Re: MDC/MUG Revival - Just do it

Dear Kevin,

We are not in a catch-22.

The Object-Oriented Language subcommittee (SC16) of the MDC spent many
years examining the state of the art in OO languages and databases to
determine how MUMPS should be upgraded with OO features.  We know how to
...
....
.....
......

I do not know who will pay for MUMPS's development, but I do not need to
know.  I suspect someone will, sooner or later.  We will pursue our
work, time will pass, and then we will learn the answer to your
question.  I am no prophet, merely a philosopher.

On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 06:54, Kevin Toppenberg wrote:

My thoughts are, who is going to pluck the cash down
on the table to actually write the code the
new-and-improved M?
...
....
.....

I think we are in a catch-22

Kevin

..
...
....

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RE: [Hardhats-members] Re: MDC/MUG Revival - Just do it

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