Re: OT celts was: Re: [HG] From the Savannah Morning News Today....

[Christophe Tellart]

Simon Wascher написал: in case of Galicia its pure propaganda. As far as I know, there is no evidence for any "celtic" setlements in Galicia at any time in history. Hello there everyone in the list! I rarely participate in subjects of the hurdy-gurdy list because there are too many topics which could be discussed and I don't have often time, what I sincerely regret... I hope I won't be unwelcome if I make an exception today... Sorry for interfering in your discussion but I must contradict you, Simon, if you don't mind... :) There are evidences of Celtic settlements in Galicia and the first to mention Celts are the famous historian Herodotus (also known as Herodotus Halikarnasseus) in his Histories and the poet Silius Catius Italicus in his Punica, an epopee about the Second Punic War composed in seventeen books during the end of the first century AD, around 80 or 88 AD. Herodote wrote very interesting descriptions of the Kallaikoi, the Greek name for the Gallaeci (or Callaeci), one of the numerous Celtic tribes which spread all over and outside Europe, right after the major Indo-European migrations. Before the Roman invasion of the future Hispania, the Gallaeci originally settled above the Douro and near the Pisuerga rivers in the Vth century BC, in the actual area of Galicia which formerly was a part of a large Roman province called Gallaecia (or Callaecia, located in north-western Hispania, roughly in the territory of Galicia, northern Portugal, León and Asturias), under Diocletian, with its capital Bracara Augusta - nowadays Braga, in Portugal. Two other renowned historians, Strabo and Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Elder), also clearly refer to them in their works. Archeologists and linguists have discovered writings by Gallaeci which now attest they used to speak a Celtic language. Their knowledge of bronze metalworking, their customs and agricultural habits are other reliable evidences which prove they were Celts, not speaking about their tongue, definitely Celtic, despite what epigraphist Carlos Castelo might have thought... Another significant proof is that since the Bronze Age and like many other Celtic tribes, former inhabitants of north-western Iberian peninsula used to protect their homes in castra (i. e. walls, hillforts or castros, in Spanish), in modern Portugal and especially in the four provinces of actual Galicia: A Coruña (Porto do Son, Sobrado dos Monxes, Cabanas, Ortigueira & Boiro), Ourense (Celanova, San Amaro & Avión), Pontevedra (A Garda) and Lugo (Castro de Rei). Like many other Celtic communities and according to the same Herodotus, the Callaeci and other Celtic families used to trade bronze and metals with Phoenicians, Greeks and Carthaginians. Some searchers say the last Galician Celtic speaker died in the XVth century but I have never found any irrefutable argument in all my books and encyclopediae to confirm that fact... According to all those historical and verifiable datas, Galicians are entitled to claim their roots are Celtic. The name of the country itself (Galicia) is eloquent enough and confirms its Celtic inheritance. You may have noticed the etymon /*gal/ is the same in the following ethnic terms: Gauls, Galatians from Ancient Galatia (who invaded Macedonia and Greece, led by the Gaulish chief Brennus) and Gaels, the well-known ethno-linguistic group which moved to Ireland, Scotland and to the Isle of Man. Gaels were called Goídeleg in Old Irish, Gaidheal in Scottish, Gaedhealg in Irish and Gwyddel in Welsh. The word "Celt(ic)" itself - I think it usually is pronounced ['kelt(ik)] in America - seems to share the same origin as the word "Gael", the common root being /*(s)kel/, meaning "powerful, prominent", even if Proto-Celtic stem /*gal(no)/ or /*galnu/ exists and expresses the notion of "power" as well... Anyway... I know it isn't a forum for linguists... The languages closest relative is Portuguese and it is mainly based on latin. Yes and Galician can be considered as a bridge between Spanish and Portuguese, like Dutch between German and English. If you are refering to Galician-Portuguese as it was spoken until the XIVth century, many medieval texts - including the Cantigas de Santa Maria and the Cancioneiro da Vaticana - help to understand how it evolved from vulgar Latin and split from Portuguese at the end of the XIVth century, evolving separately and being lexically or morpho-syntaxicly influenced by Castilian Spanish. Of course, considering actual Galician and Portuguese as modern dialects of the same language can be debated further since the question hasn't been solved until today by romanists... Be that as it may, never say a Galician he speaks Portuguese unless you want to be flamed and subsequently punched! ;) I am also sorry to say that you have forgotten to mention other languages which were widely spoken in Galicia, such as proto-iberic - also known as iberic among linguists and refering to an extinct Celtic language - and celtiberic. They used to write in an alphabet derivated from Greek, like other people did, like Etruscans, for instance, but there is no doubt their languages were definitely Celtic. Bagpipes can be found with more or less any group of people who settled in Europe the last thousand years or so. And even in many countries outside Europe, like Tunisia (with its mezwed), Georgia (chiboni & gudast'viri), Iran (the neyanbânn) or Northern India (I am not speaking about Scottish bagpipes made in Pakistan but about mochuk from Kashmir and some variants of pungi/magudi pipes blown through a mouth inflated pork bladder). Many musicologists assert history combined with updated organology tend to prove that bagpipes might possibly come from North India and were once adopted by Greeks and Romans! Even if being "celtic" is something summed up from - settlements of someone somewhen in the past who himselves or someonelse then or later on called "celt" - people who lived there in the past being supected for having spoken a language related to what linguists see as close relative of the language written down by some guys 2000 years ago in the territory the Romans called "Terra Gallica" Yes but as already explained, the name of Galicia comes from one of the very numerous Celtic tribe called Gallaeci and mentionned by Herodotus. They are no more "suspected" of having spoken a Celtic language: they actually did... By the way, I wonder what you call "terra gallica" since I haven't read any reference to such a term among Latin texts - but I may be wrong, of course... - the use of harps and/or bagpipes in the presence or near past It is true and very funny at the same time because harps first used to be played by Egyptians around 3600 BC and by Sumerians in Mesopotamia circa 3000 BC, more than two thousand five hundred years before Celts first appeared! - an affectation for checked patterns You are right to remind that many people claim to be true Celts although they aren't... Even musicians try to force other people to see Celtic influences in the music of Guillaume de Machaut (!), in some Swedish complaints or in Minnesänger... Celticness has become way too much a fashion, sometimes... even then there are other regions in Europe who could be called "celtic" with the same or more reason as these "seven nations", for example Bohemia or Greece. Yes, all the more since the presence of Celtic tribes is attested in Bohemia (the so called Scordiscs and Boii), in Moravia, in Western Slovakia and in the North of Greece... Again, historians Diodorus Siculus and Strabo mention them, Plautus (the theatre writer) and Julius Caesar as well. About nations, especially archeological findings on nations, there is a clever example: If an archeologist of the future does excavations in Europe he will find that up to one moment in the past, Coca Cola bottles can only be found in the western half of the continent (He might call the guys the Coca-Cola-people). From a certain moment on (known as 1989) these bottles can be found everywhere in the east too. If these fact is interpreted the way we tend to interprete historical findings today, this indicates that the people from western Europe moved eastwards in big numbers and settled down there (the Coca-Cola-people moved eastwards). As we all know, generally spoken, nobody moved, the habit of drinking Coca Cola moved (If someone moves today its more likely from east to west). Even if I don't dislike this refreshing beverage, I personally hope Coca-Cola won't ever have too much to do with archeology... ;) So somewhen in the last ten years or so, the habit of calling their ancestors and their culture "celtic" moved to north-west Spain. kind regards simon Forgive me if I have been too long and annoying... Have a very good day wherever you are! Warm hugs to all my friends from Fort Flagler and abroad! Christophe Tellart