Re: OT celts was: Re: [HG] From the Savannah Morning News Today.... (my last message)

[Christophe Tellart]

Simon Wascher a écrit : Hello,  Herodotus, ... Strabo and Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Elder), also clearly refer to them in their works. Do you know if any of these men ever was at those settlements he described? ever spoke to the people they are writing of? They also wrote about things like Atlantis. To me, these roman writers mainly proof that Romans belived that the people in that area are named Kallaikoi - which someone else belived to be the Greek name for the Gallaeci (or Callaeci), which someone else belived to be a "Celtic" "tribe". And a lot of the Roman sources is part of roman propaganda, like Iulius Caesars writings. This is as if you want to understand Afghanistan from KGB sources - starting with the fact that "Afghanistan" is   a colonial construct. Good day or evening, Simon and everyone! Please forgive this last message and ignore it if you dislike history. I promise it will be the last time I will write something about Celtiberic Galicia... Be indulgent because I practically never participate in the "hurdy-gurdy list" and I am almost unknown on it... I am sorry but Kallaikoi is obviously the Greek name for Gallaeci, also spelt Callaeci, with the classical phonetical interchange of /g/ with /k/. I wonder how it can be doubted and I think you complicate things unnecessarily for one very simple reason: the root is the same in both Latin and Greek words... After having read you, I assume you think Herodotus, Strabo and Pliny were imprecise and not well documented but they really weren't... May I suggest you to get some of their books, if you haven't? :) Comparing the situation in Hispania with the one in ex-communist Afghanistan is rather simplistic but if you feel so, that is all right... I know pointing out colonialism and its misdeeds has become a fashion, in 2006, but I am conviced people should compare things which can be compared; social, political and cultural situation of Hispania can't be compared with the one which prevailed in Afghanistan... The fact is that I have the feeling you see propaganda everywhere... Both Latin and Greek historians were very accurate and I really doubt they ever participated in any kind of "propaganda"... Having studied what these authors wrote for many years, I can assure you that what they revealed about Celts is not that deprecative and very instructive. I hope your opinion on them will change, sometimes... Lastly, Julius Caesar's still existing writings and whose authorship is not doubted are his Commentarii (his comments) about Gallic & Civil Wars (Commentarii de Bello Gallico & Commentarii de Bello Civili). If you have read them, I wonder how you can't say it is a "Roman propaganda"! Caesar has always been very accurate in his memories and what he delivers is quite valuable, dealing with geography and history, describing Gauls and comparing them with Latins and Germanic populations. As for Atlantis, I don't know what to think and even if I don't share all elements exposed by Plato and Strabo, I wouldn't be surprised if definitive evidences that this island existed were found... Archeologists and linguists have discovered writings by Gallaeci which now attest they used to speak a Celtic language. Last time I asked a linguist specialised in celtic languages, he mentioned findings of writings in todays France. This is the first time I hear of celtic language writings being found in north west Spain. If there are written findings of celtic languages in this area (where?) I let myself be convinced. I don't recall where exactly but some Celtiberic writings on stones of between the second century BC and the second century AD have been underlined, mostly using the Iberian writing system and having nothing to do with Tartessian (non Indo-European) writings. A few were written in a derivate Latin alphabet. This tongue is unmistakably identified as Celtic. Kerry Ann McKevitt and Van Hammel have written very well documented studies about Celtiberians in Galicia and I am sure you will be able to find it on "Amazon" or another dealer. Here are some references I have and which are of outmost interest: Kerry Ann McKevitt - The Celts in the Iberian Peninsula & A traducción dos galegos á historia celta (anuario de estudios literarios galegos) Vicetto, Benito - Historia de Galicia Van Hamel - Zeitschrift für Celtische Philologie Their knowledge of bronze metalworking, No. Coca Cola bottles in Poland today are by no means evidence to proove that there are US-americans putting up settlements in Poland or english being a native language. By the way, these bottles are not imported, but produced locally. I am sorry again but comparing Coca-Cola cans with Celtic millenary metalworking is rather strange and simplistic... Even if I happen to drink that refreshing sparkling soda, sometimes, it can't be compared with metallurgy... I try to stick to history and archaeology. I am not a  specialist of metallurgy but it is well known that Celts excelled in metalworking! Very precise constants Celtic populations shared in forging their weapons and manufacturing their jewels have been underlined. There were very interesting exhibitions in Paris and Munich about Celtic gold and Celtic metalworking, and most of Celtic tribes had the same technics in common. their customs and agricultural habits are other reliable evidences which prove they were Celts, Their customs are described again by thesame roman writers (see above). By the way, even if we find english writings in Poland today, this does not proof that the people living there people speak english. That customs and agricultural habits of the Kallaikoi have been extensively described by Greek and Roman historians doesn't mean descriptions they did are necessary absurd, non realistic or biased... Nowadays "culture" can't be compared with the one in ancient times... Many progresses have been achieved in book printing since Gutenberg and one more time, sorry for insisting, we cannot compare actual situation (in 2006) in Poland, Galicia, France, Austria or whatsoever with what was happening in Hispania - and throughout what would become Europe - around 40 BC...  Another significant proof is that since the Bronze Age and like many other Celtic tribes, former inhabitants of north-western Iberian peninsula used to protect their homes in castra (i. e. walls, hillforts or castros, in Spanish) The use of walls for protection against strangers is not sign of being a "celt". Not more than the use of bagpipes. I agree for bagpipes and I mentionned a whole range of bagpipes which aren't Celtic but please allow me to disagree concerning castra because this type of hillfort has nothing to do with medieval cities, villages or castles surrounded with walls. Archaeologists who have specialized in Hallstatt culture from about 1200 BC, in tumula and castra could explain that better than me.  Some searchers say the last Galician Celtic speaker died in the XVth century but I have never found any irrefutable argument in all my books and encyclopediae to confirm that fact... how to confirm the death of a legend? I am not sure it was a legend... Many people and even linguists spoke about "legends" refering to Coptic spoken until the XVIIth century, to Ubykh in use by a locutor up until the early 1990's (and now extinct), to Phrygian and Tokharian B which both were unfairly considered as non Indo-European languages... Historical and linguistical discoveries have now solved those "legends" and proved those facts, now quite established. The name of the country itself (Galicia) is eloquent enough and confirms its Celtic inheritance. But you know that there is a large area in central Europa called "Galicia"?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Central_Europe) and one in Turkey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia and one in Romania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gala%C5%A3i_County Yes, I know, don't worry! :) I personally am persuaded these areas are of Celtic origin, which has been proved for Galatia in Turkey, if you remember Saint Jerome (Hieronymus in German) and his description of the Galatians, the inhabitants of Galatia, if you take the famous Epistle to the Galations (or Galatians) by Saint Paul of Tarsus and numerous excavations made there by W. M. Ramsay in 1918 and 1924 or even nowadays by searchers of the "Gordion Excavations Project", near Yassihüyük, confirming Galatians originally came from Gaul. Concerning Galicja (Galicia, if you prefer) between Ukraine and Poland, there is a good probability it could be a Celtic substract since the etymology "halyca" or "halka" seems hazardous. Historians still don't agree together... As for "Judeţul Galaţi", the county of Galaţi, proofs were found that this area was inhabited by Dacians/Getae and Celts but researches continue there because of lacks of significant evidences. You will find very interesting informations there, for instance => http://arheologie.ulbsibiu.ro/publicatii/bibliotheca/acta%20V%20special%20number/915dacian.htm Speaking about "Wikipedia", the so called "free encyclopedia", I am sorry to say that it is not always serious or well documented... It is way too "free" for me and since each article can be updated by any user, I don't really trust this online database, as I don't trust much cultural, historical and linguistical datas accessible on the (not so holy!) Web... I really prefer my books, my encyclopaediae, my dictionaries... I can assure you I often have noticed significant mistakes in linguistics and history, for example... I won't blame "Wikipedia" since it is free, though... The only thing I would suggest is to be very cautious with informations circulating on the Internet, for they sometimes are erroneous. There are a few rare Web pages which are reliable for historical or linguistic matters and "indoeuro.bizland.com" - mentionned by Nathan Roy - is one of them! I registered there five years ago and I don't regret it. :) Todays North-West Spain is not more "celtic" than Hungary, Switzerland, Belgium or other areas in Europe you want to chose. In all those coutries somewhen somone lived who was called a "celt" by someone else somewhen. Yes, you are right to type modern Galicia isn't much "Celtic" anymore, even if many musicians are inspired with Irish music, but when I use the word "Celtic", I personally refer to ethnico-linguistic groups, families or tribes, extinct or still alive. I surely don't refer to actual Celtic culture and music, real or illusive. I was considering Celts linguistically speaking. Even Pakistani people play the highland pipes and there are many bagpipers all around the world! It doesn't mean they are true Celts, of course! Celticness has become way too much a fashion, sometimes... Yes. There was a similar fashion about a hundred years ago in Europe: Everyone wanted to be Germanic. We all know where it took us. kind regards Of course but it isn't because you try to find what your origins and roots are and because you want to protect your own culture and traditions that you fatally become a dictator... I also can assure you there is a whole row of dictators, nowadays, but as Kipling used to write in his marvelous novels, "that is another story"! I personally won't discuss this subject any further because as some already reminded, it isn't a forum for linguistics. Of course, anyone willing to pursue this very interesting topic can feel free to contact me offlist... :) I only wanted to make things a bit more precise ethnically & linguistically speaking, and only ethnically & linguistically. :) Have a good day or evening and sorry for having interfered, what I quite rarely do on this list, contributing maybe twice a year... Christophe T.