Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. Meh. 2009/8/6 Tony Paloma <[email protected]>: > I think you missed the sarcasm. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and > game of the year... again. > > 2009/8/6 botman <[email protected]>: >> How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our >> helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and >> need our help. >> >> On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: >>> They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of >>> scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. >>> >>> garry >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nick<[email protected]> wrote: >>>> I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this > subject. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennison<[email protected]> > wrote: >>>>> Seconded! >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> - Saul. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman<[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>>> I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of > including >>>>>> all my hard-earned research in this one? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work >>>>>> fully >>>>>>> with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the >>>>>>> lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had >>>>>> trouble >>>>>>> on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that >>>>>> Faceposer >>>>>>> requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely >>>>>> lemons, >>>>>>> not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Harry >>>>>>> Pidcock >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM >>>>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a > wrapper >>>>>>> that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very >>>>>> visual >>>>>>> language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then >>>>>>> translated into complex hlsl). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: "Harry Jeffery"<[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM >>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming"< >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the > whitespace. >>>>>> =[ >>>>>>>> 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald<[email protected]>: >>>>>>>>> I like this one better. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Olly >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on > my >>>>>>>>> screen!... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock<[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully >>>>>>>>>> implemented >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> new feature. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Andrew Ritchie"<[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Surely this topic could be split into several different points. >>>>>>>>>> Personally >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> see 4 different ones here. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1) Engine features >>>>>>>>>>> 2) Tools Capabilities >>>>>>>>>>> 3) Tools Availability >>>>>>>>>>> 4) Tools Presentation >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new >>>>>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think > it's >>>>>>>>>>> important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games >>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you > are >>>>>>>>>>> modding >>>>>>>>>>> their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made > Valve >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> money and brought huge success but they were also developed > around >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR >>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> mods >>>>>>>>>>> to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent > an >>>>>>>>> engine >>>>>>>>>>> change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to >>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>> prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a >>>>>> drastic >>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>>>>> for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get >>>>>>>>>>> underway >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things >>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>>> of work, if not at all. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, > I >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically >>>>>>>>>>> allowing >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just >>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> common format. The tool would need to have the importer and >>>>>>> converter >>>>>>>>>>> written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a >>>>>> specific >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. >>>>>>>>>>> Especially >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format > that >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> tool >>>>>>>>>>> can then use. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be >>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>> source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look > at >>>>>>>>>>> Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally >>>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>>> projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own >>>>>>> editor >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better >>>>>> designed >>>>>>>>>>> tool. >>>>>>>>>>> However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be > of >>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>> benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating > around >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> you really think you could add something useful to it? It may > have >>>>>>>>>>> bugs >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and >>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> example? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool >>>>>> with >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> UI >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is >>>>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>>>>>> the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However > I >>>>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it > the >>>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what >>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>> need. >>>>>>>>>>> It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this > back >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around >>>>>> in >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> hex >>>>>>>>>>> or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing > the >>>>>>>>>>> technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors >>>>>> hiding >>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>> the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between > the >>>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might >>>>>> be, >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end > for >>>>>>>>>> those. >>>>>>>>>>> Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling > it >>>>>>> up, >>>>>>>>>>> HLMV >>>>>>>>>>> too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about >>>>>> simplifying >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive > development >>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>>> lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious >>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>> rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can > accept >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately > obvious >>>>>>>>>> reason. >>>>>>>>>>> The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> best approached with good old community spirit. If you're > serious >>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>>> about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way >>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>> develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing > to >>>>>>>>>>> tackle. >>>>>>>>>>> Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a >>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are >>>>>> examples >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and > Garrys >>>>>>>>>>> mod >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> prime example of taking what is available game code wise and > adding >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just >>>>>>>>>>> falling >>>>>>>>>>> back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats > best >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> Valve >>>>>>>>>>> games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears<[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I > agree >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> Jed said 100%. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> great, thanks! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed<[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding >>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that >>>>>> StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>>>> supports. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to >>>>>>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>>> it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not >>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled >>>>>> against >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to >>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. >>>>>>> Therefore >>>>>>>>>>>>> SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> 3D >>>>>>>>>>>>> app users themselves. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as >>>>>> DAE, >>>>>>>>>>>>> FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>>>> compiler >>>>>>>>>>>>> (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in >>>>>>> *addition* >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So why should they do it? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce > content >>>>>>>>>>>>> out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example >>>>>> DAE/FBX >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of >>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> choice to create content. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> format in the compiler. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that >>>>>>>>>>>>> write >>>>>>>>>>>>> it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, >>>>>> et >>>>>>>>> al. >>>>>>>>>>>>> to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me > once >>>>>>>>>>>>> asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>> that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had >>>>>>>>>>>>> invested >>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a >>>>>>>>>>>>> Source >>>>>>>>>>>>> license for their title was hanging on the availability of >>>>>>> plug-ins >>>>>>>>>>>>> for Max. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels >>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider >>>>>> adoption >>>>>>>>>>>>> which might result in more licensees and from a modders >>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective, >>>>>>>>>>>>> more people getting into it and maybe making the next >>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS/TF2/Portal >>>>>>>>>>>>> that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a >>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - >>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start >>>>>>> (and >>>>>>>>>>>>> adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old > buggy >>>>>>>>>>>>> mxtk >>>>>>>>>>>>> GUI from Mete's HLMV. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually >>>>>>> phase >>>>>>>>>>>>> out SMD, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source >>>>>> code >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from >>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>>>>> partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D >>>>>>>>> window >>>>>>>>>>>>> like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible >>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>> that developers can add support for model rendering in other >>>>>> apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to > end >>>>>>>>>>>>> users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm >>>>>>> welcoming >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience to inspire the next great ideas. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but you get the general idea... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Jed >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez<[email protected]>: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh<[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>>>>>> meshes, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight >>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> 3d >>>>>>>>>>>>> model / >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animation -> .mdl ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where >>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> combine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple .smds to make an animation? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> formidable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>> leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't >>>>>>>>>>>> tell >>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly >>>>>>> having >>>>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> combining >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still >>>>>> pisses >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>>> artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but >>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they haven't replaced it entirely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too >>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it >>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a backwards way. >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: >>>>>>>>>> 07/24/09 >>>>>>>>>>> 18:24:00 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, >>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, >>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: >>>>>>> 07/25/09 >>>>>>>> 18:01:00 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >> >> -- >> Jeffrey "botman" Broome >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >
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