I called 911. The wambulance is on the way. On 10/7/2009 9:15 PM, Nick wrote: > still no reply, im not surprised though > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Harry Jeffery > <harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> wrote: >> Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. >> Meh. >> >> 2009/8/6 Tony Paloma<drunkenf...@hotmail.com>: >>> I think you missed the sarcasm. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery >>> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM >>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>> >>> They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and >>> game of the year... again. >>> >>> 2009/8/6 botman<botman.hlcod...@gmail.com>: >>>> How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our >>>> helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and >>>> need our help. >>>> >>>> On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: >>>>> They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of >>>>> scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. >>>>> >>>>> garry >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nick<xnicho...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this >>> subject. >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennison<saul.renni...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>>> Seconded! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> - Saul. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman<lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of >>> including >>>>>>>> all my hard-earned research in this one? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris >>>>>>>> <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work >>>>>>>> fully >>>>>>>>> with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the >>>>>>>>> lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had >>>>>>>> trouble >>>>>>>>> on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that >>>>>>>> Faceposer >>>>>>>>> requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely >>>>>>>> lemons, >>>>>>>>> not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>>>> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry >>>>>>>>> Pidcock >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM >>>>>>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a >>> wrapper >>>>>>>>> that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very >>>>>>>> visual >>>>>>>>> language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then >>>>>>>>> translated into complex hlsl). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> From: "Harry Jeffery"<harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM >>>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming"< >>>>>>>> hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the >>> whitespace. >>>>>>>> =[ >>>>>>>>>> 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald<voo...@voogru.com>: >>>>>>>>>>> I like this one better. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on >>> my >>>>>>>>>>> screen!... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock<haz...@tpg.com.au> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully >>>>>>>>>>>> implemented >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> new feature. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Andrew Ritchie"<gotta...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" >>>>>>>>>>>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Surely this topic could be split into several different points. >>>>>>>>>>>> Personally >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> see 4 different ones here. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Engine features >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Tools Capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) Tools Availability >>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) Tools Presentation >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new >>>>>>>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think >>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>> important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>> doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you >>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> modding >>>>>>>>>>>>> their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made >>> Valve >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> money and brought huge success but they were also developed >>> around >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> mods >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent >>> an >>>>>>>>>>> engine >>>>>>>>>>>>> change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to >>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>> prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a >>>>>>>> drastic >>>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>>>>>>> for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get >>>>>>>>>>>>> underway >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>>>>> of work, if not at all. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, >>> I >>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically >>>>>>>>>>>>> allowing >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just >>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> common format. The tool would need to have the importer and >>>>>>>>> converter >>>>>>>>>>>>> written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a >>>>>>>> specific >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Especially >>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>> it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format >>> that >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> tool >>>>>>>>>>>>> can then use. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be >>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>> source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look >>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally >>>>>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>>>>> projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own >>>>>>>>> editor >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better >>>>>>>> designed >>>>>>>>>>>>> tool. >>>>>>>>>>>>> However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be >>> of >>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating >>> around >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>> you really think you could add something useful to it? It may >>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>> bugs >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and >>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> example? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> UI >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is >>>>>>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>>>>>>>> the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However >>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>> again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>> is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> need. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>> that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this >>> back >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> hex >>>>>>>>>>>>> or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors >>>>>>>> hiding >>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>> the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might >>>>>>>> be, >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end >>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> those. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling >>> it >>>>>>>>> up, >>>>>>>>>>>>> HLMV >>>>>>>>>>>>> too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about >>>>>>>> simplifying >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive >>> development >>>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>>>>> lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>> rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can >>> accept >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately >>> obvious >>>>>>>>>>>> reason. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> best approached with good old community spirit. If you're >>> serious >>>>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>>>>> about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way >>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>> develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing >>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> tackle. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a >>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are >>>>>>>> examples >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and >>> Garrys >>>>>>>>>>>>> mod >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> prime example of taking what is available game code wise and >>> adding >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just >>>>>>>>>>>>> falling >>>>>>>>>>>>> back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats >>> best >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> Valve >>>>>>>>>>>>> games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears<benmea...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I >>> agree >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jed said 100%. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> great, thanks! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed<j...@wunderboy.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding >>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that >>>>>>>> StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled >>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. >>>>>>>>> Therefore >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> 3D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app users themselves. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as >>>>>>>> DAE, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compiler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in >>>>>>>>> *addition* >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why should they do it? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce >>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example >>>>>>>> DAE/FBX >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice to create content. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format in the compiler. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, >>>>>>>> et >>>>>>>>>>> al. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me >>> once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 >>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Source >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> license for their title was hanging on the availability of >>>>>>>>> plug-ins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Max. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider >>>>>>>> adoption >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which might result in more licensees and from a modders >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more people getting into it and maybe making the next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS/TF2/Portal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start >>>>>>>>> (and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old >>> buggy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mxtk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GUI from Mete's HLMV. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually >>>>>>>>> phase >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out SMD, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source >>>>>>>> code >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from >>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D >>>>>>>>>>> window >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that developers can add support for model rendering in other >>>>>>>> apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to >>> end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm >>>>>>>>> welcoming >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience to inspire the next great ideas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but you get the general idea... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Jed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez<bs.v...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh<minh...@telus.net> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meshes, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> 3d >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model / >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animation -> .mdl ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple .smds to make an animation? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> formidable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly >>>>>>>>> having >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still >>>>>>>> pisses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they haven't replaced it entirely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it >>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a backwards way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: >>>>>>>>>>>> 07/24/09 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 18:24:00 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: >>>>>>>>> 07/25/09 >>>>>>>>>> 18:01:00 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jeffrey "botman" Broome >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >
-- Jeffrey "botman" Broome _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
