Dale auditioned after he had sat as principal in the CSO for over a decade. He was more than qualified for the job.
I think we're agreeing for half of your post but it sounds like you're not clear on what I said. So I'll clarify... Auditions will never be 100% objective. There is always some subjectivity - which we agree on. My point is that auditions are not the perfect things they are cracked up to be - and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of ways to make them much more objective. For example, many studies have been made with regards to voting and psychology. It turns out that just voting for who you want isn't as effective as ranking the people you would prefer. Audition committees could rank people based on who'd they prefer. They could also instead record the excerpts and listen to them next to each other and rank accordingly. There are plenty of studies done in things like this so I'd have to do some homework to find examples. What I'm trying to say is that some aspects of subjectivity could probably be exploited - and could count against you. -William -----Original Message----- From: Hans Pizka <[email protected]> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Non-Transposing stop mute/more like audition prep Sorry, very sorry, you have not any idea about real auditions. The value of a player cannot be counted in points or cents. The good player does also not play same good every day. The best player, the most secure player will not consequently be the best fitting player for the open job. There is the blending with the style of the section or the musical philosophy of the ensemble. These things cannot be measured objectively as they depend on personal views of the things on both sides, the player & the jury. And about Dale: (same myself) he obviously was not ready for the job, so he did not make it to the final round then. But he won one of the most demanding jobs finally & kept it for ..... how many years ....... (like myself).. That´s it. ###################################################################################################################### Am 14.05.2010 um 20:32 schrieb [email protected]: > > With all due respect, I think you missed the point. The point is that our listening and our ears are not 100% objective. There is an incredible amount of subjectivity that goes on when we listen to something and we decide what we like or dislike. > > There is some objectivity there - but only when dealing with things like intonation or listening for cadences, etc. because that's based off of frequencies and chord progression. > > There have also been situations where professional players like Dale > Clevenger have taken very small auditions and never made the final round - so you cannot say that good players will always be recognized. > > All of our senses can be fooled - and what we see or hear (or what we think > we see and think we hear) are mostly matters of perception. This is why things like science are not based off of strict observation - but based off of more objective criteria. This is also why that people may believe or think they've seen UFOs or Ghosts - but they always seem to fail to be measured or are completely untestable or unrepeatable. People make assumptions. People think they hear things that aren't always there. This is human nature. Unless you're a robot, you're not getting rid of it. > > Because there is simply no way you can have a purely objective audition, > there is simply no way you can have a purely objective result. Once you 'poison the well' with subjectivity (which is going to happen in any audition), that subjectivity will never be removed. > > I'm not saying that you could crap all over the parts and win the audition. What I am saying is that it is possible to over expose the subjective parts of an audition so that it could be possible that the same person could lose or win to himself simply based on the mood of the committee, the time of day, when he auditioned (what order), or if he make a few extra sounds like walking too heavily that annoyed the one person that decided to then vote against him. In other words, if the players are pretty much equal (or perhaps even the same two or three players repeated twice or three times) then I bet real money that you could trick any audition committee - no matter how much of expert they are. > > If they're still human, there's going to be a level of psychology involved. > > -William > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans Pizka <[email protected]> > To: The Horn List <[email protected]> > Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 2:06 pm > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Non-Transposing stop mute/more like audition prep > > > Quite naive, William. The horns do not make it, but the player does make a > difference. But a very good player can be recognized no matter what horn he > is > using. - And, do you think, really think, a jury could not recognize the > differences, even very light differences between different players. It seems to > me, that you might calculate from your own hearing abilities, while the jury > members are experts (mostly). Their ears are sharpened by daily exposition to > listen each other so to blend better. > > ######################################################################################################################## > Am 14.05.2010 um 00:24 schrieb [email protected]: > >> >> I am reminded of Ken Pope's experiment where he played three different horns > for a blind panel and just about no one could tell them apart. >> >> -William >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Milton Kicklighter <[email protected]> >> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> >> Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 11:06 am >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Non-Transposing stop mute/more like audition prep >> >> >> O for Gods sake!!!! Do you want to embarrass the audition committee, or God > >> forbid the conductor!!!! :) >> >> Milton >> Have been on many audition committees >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 11:45:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Non-Transposing stop mute/more like audition prep >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> You know it just occurred to me. I wonder if an experiment could be >> conducted >> where there is a set list of audition pieces, a set blind panel, and instead > of >> using live players one uses a high fidelity recording of only two or three >> players to see if the audition committee can tell a difference. >> >> Or use the same player who doesn't miss notes but plays things only slightly >> differently or on a different horn. >> >> Psychology tells me the results might be interesting. >> >> -William >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Luke Zyla <[email protected]> >> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 11:10 pm >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Non-Transposing stop mute/more like audition prep >> >> >> I recommend that everyone visit the website of Roger Rocco. He has >> excellent advice regarding audition preparation and brass playing in >> general. I had the pleasure of observing him give a lesson to my son >> recently. It was a very memorable experience. >> >> http://www.rogerrocco.com/ >> >> Luke Zyla >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 9:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Non-Transposing stop mute >> >> >>> >>> Considering the following: >>> >>> * There are usually 50x as many qualified players as there are jobs, if >>> not more so >>> * Playing perfectly does not guarantee you win an audition >>> * And that little things like when you play, who you hear, and how you >>> prepare can trip you up if you're not careful >>> * AND that even if you do play well the order which you play and who you >>> are next to can have a psychological impact on the listening committee >>> >>> I don't think that this level of sarcasm is particularly funny. We play a >>> difficult instrument. No matter how good you are, you are never guaranteed >>> a job at any audition. This is reality. I've seen it happen with players >>> that could probably play the phone book if it was possible. >>> >>> Hans seems to think that I don't know how to prepare without even asking >>> how I'm preparing. >>> Now you're assuming I'm such a beginner that I don't know which end to >>> blow on? >>> >>> I'm pretty sure there are some real studies out there regarding >>> performance anxiety, etc. >>> >>> My post was assuming that ceterus parabus you show up well prepared to an >>> audition and that you don't miss. >>> >>> Also, am I odd in that I actually prepare for an audition? Am I on the >>> wrong planet? >>> >>> Let's face it. A lot of work has been done to make auditions as fair as >>> possible. But they are not and NEVER WILL BE strictly objective. There is >>> absolutely no way to remove all subjectivity from any audition. And, until >>> you can you will always have to look at aspects that can affect subjective >>> decisions. My point is (whether people admit it or not) that we are never >>> going to avoid the psychological aspects of playing or auditions - and >>> they DO have an effect on results. >>> >>> -William >>> >>> PS: If you were just being silly, I apologize. But it's very hard to gauge >>> context over the internet. >>> >>> PPS: I also apologize for any "high-school slang" - since Hans complained >>> about it and never once told me specifically what he was referring to. I >>> probably won't drop that :) >>> >>> >>> Concerning audition preparation, here is a way to keep an advantage. >>> Horn components can be confusing. When you arrive at a particularly >>> particularly stressful audition and open your case there is danger of >>> misidentifying all those component bells and whistles and mutes. >>> Beginners might want to copy the following rules onto a slip of paper >>> and paste it inside the horn case: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steve Haflich <[email protected]> >>> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:56 pm >>> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Non-Transposing stop mute >>> >>> >>> Luke Zyla <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I ordered a non-transposing stop mute a couple of years ago to give it a >>> try. (Best Brass) >>> I returned it for two reasons. The most important reason was that I was >>> not >>> happy with the sound. It did not sound like stopped horn to me. >>> Secondly, >>> I could not get used to not transposing when using the mute. Old habits >>> die >>> hard. Personally, I always prefer to use hand stopping. That is the >>> sound >>> that composers have in mind, with the exception of some modern >>> composers. I >>> have a stop mute, but I use it very rarely. >>> >>> You are forgetting the most important use of the brass stopping mute: >>> >>> Suppose your horn has become mushy and you suspect a leak somewhere. >>> You can place a small square of plastic wrap (e.g. "Saran Wrap" in the >>> U.S.) over the wide end of the stopping mute, insert it tightly in the >>> bell, and it will form a very tight seal. Blow into the lead pipe and >>> you can either hear any escaping air, or else fill the horn with >>> cigarette smoke before inserting the mute (but _don't_ inhale) and look >>> for escaping smoke when forcing air into the leadpipe end. >>> >>> ========== >>> >>> Concerning audition preparation, here is a way to keep an advantage. >>> Horn components can be confusing. When you arrive at a particularly >>> particularly stressful audition and open your case there is danger of >>> misidentifying all those component bells and whistles and mutes. >>> Beginners might want to copy the following rules onto a slip of paper >>> and paste it inside the horn case: >>> >>> (1) The _narrow_ end of the mouthpiece should be inserted into the >>> _narrow_ end of the horn. >>> >>> (2) When needed, the _narrow_ end of the straight mute should be >>> inserted into the _wide_ end of the horn. >>> >>> (3) When needed, the _wide_ end of the stopping mute should be >>> inserted into the _wide_ end of the horn. >>> >>> (4) Rule (1) is always applicable, but rules (2) and (3) are only >>> necessary for certain marked passages. >>> >>> (5) In any case, remember rules (2) and (3) cannot be effectuated >>> successfully at the same time. Some composers have occasionally >>> missed this limitation, but you are supposed to be a professional >>> horn player, so you cannot be forgetful about this. >>> >>> (1) (2) and (3) are the only wide/narrow combinations that work, except >>> for rare special effects. Reviewing these rules before being called on >>> stage will help get the beginner through the most stressful audition. >>> I'm sure all members of the VPO could rederive these rules without even >>> having to glance inside their cases -- but these are especially >>> experienced and gifted players. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> post: [email protected] >>> unsubscribe or set options at >>> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> post: [email protected] >>> unsubscribe or set options at >>> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/lzyla%40suddenlink.net >>> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> post: [email protected] >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> post: [email protected] >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/kicklighgter%40yahoo.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> post: [email protected] >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> post: [email protected] >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/hpizka%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > post: [email protected] > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > > > _______________________________________________ > post: [email protected] > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/hpizka%40me.com _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] unsubscribe or set options at https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] unsubscribe or set options at https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
