Hello Paul, I have played and watched players from around the world and I find that you can start in any position that you would like, as long as you never plan to play with anyone else. If, however, you plan to play with others you will find that by using a position other than the down for one (as described using the thumb), you will find yourself quickly out of time or out of place as you play. The "down for one" idea is not just to say "I am right and you are wrong", rather it is to keep the rhythm in a group of players. If all of the players play in the same position it is easy to get back into the proper rhythm and timing for the tune and help keep those around you in time also.
I find that if someone is playing in a position that is odd (as it relates to my playing) it tends to throw my timing off and I have to turn away from the player to get the timing right. That said, you should be able to START a tune in any position (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,8 3/4 e.g. pick-up note) as long as the timing remains the same as those around you and that the 1 remains at the top when all around you play 1 from the top/down. Given that pretty much every one I know plays the French style (Maxou, Bouffard, Chabenat, Jolivet, Wascher (yes I know he's German, or are you Austrian, Simon?), Pignol, etc.) I am planning on sticking with the 1 down pattern. Scott -----Original Message----- From: Paul Sherwood <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, Oct 18, 2010 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [HG-new] teaching & books Dear Michael, Simon, and all, A month or so ago, Michael raised a challenge to some of us > We were taught by both [Rivière and Clastrier] ito start the first stroke at a notional 12.00 by the clock, but there seems to be a new school who start at 3.00. I don't see any advantage in this. Perhaps some new timer would explain the reasoning" and Simon responded: > probably its all mainly a question of description. I would describe the position of the first stroke as 'about half past one' but depending on the geometry of player plus instrument. ..... The discussion has since gone rather quiet. I would like to respond, o respectfully take issue with both Michael's reference to a "new chool" and Simon's explanation of the issue being one of description. In my experience of talking to, and observing, a number of UK and rench players there are indeed two distinct "schools" of playing, ith experienced and highly proficient players in both schools. As uch it is common to find that in a typical UK hurdy-gurdy workshop of ntermediate or experienced players the participants are made up of a ade of a mixture of these. Rather than use the figures of the clock face, or even up/down irection of the stroke, I would suggest the best way to compare and he techniques of different players is to consider the parts of the and that are used to play the four different coups, assuming a lightly open hand (forming a little cage). I would describe these our parts as the hand as follows 1) the ball of the thumb, really the fleshy edge of the palm rather than the thumb itself ) the first joint of the thumb ) the fingertips of 1st and 2nd fingers, usually working together ) the upper side of the 3rd (ring) finger In my experience, most players agree that these are the four ontact points, but they differ with respect to which coups in the oup-de-4 sequence each part of the hand is used for. The Muskett ethod (3rd edition, 1998 on p31) presents the parts of the hand in he order given above, and as I understand the book the intention is hat the coup-de-4 is to be played with the impacts made in this rder, for exzmple, the description of the Coup-de-1 is is that it hould be made downwards with the ball of the thumb. In order to compare this approach with other teaching, I think it elps to consider how these four parts of the hand tend to push the anivelle in particular directions. 1) the palm of the hand provides an impact away from the player with some degree of downward motion. The amount of downward motion depends on the timing of the coup, the later it is made, the more downwards it becomes. ) the thumb strike is well suited to driving the knob almost directly downward ) the 1st and 2nd fingers pull the knob towards the player ) the side of the ring finger works best when providing an upward impact The approach I remember from French teachers such as Maxou, ouffard, Chabenat, Pignol and others, the first joint of the thumb is sed to play the first coup. To me, this coincides with Simon's escription. But rather than dwelling on the position of the coup as easured on a clock face , or exactly which bit of the thumb is used, think it is more helpful to consider what happens next. This makes he distinction between the techniques more explicit. From Maxou's ook (Cahier de répertoire), there is a brief recap of the whole oup-de-4 at the start, I would pick out the key descriptors 1. Frappé . Tiré . Levé . Poussé So after the first coup, we then pull towards the player, then lift, nd finally push away from the player. Clearly the thumb is used for ., the 1st and 2nd fingers for 2. the ring finger for 3, and the ball f the thumb would come into play in the final 4th coup, but here it s used to push away, rather than initiate a downward motion (as n the Muskett method, for the 1st coup). To play with this technique, which I understand is quite traditional nd not a "new school" at all, the parts of the hand have to be used in he sequence 1) the first joint of the thumb ) the fingertips of the 1st and 2nd fingers ) the side of the 3rd (ring) finger ) the ball of the thumb So I am quite confident that the interpretation of the Muskett method s presented earlier in this message is out-of-step with the technique f most French players (Clastrier, I understand, being a notable xception). It is different by one step in the sequence of parts of he hand, or therefore by approximately one quarter of a turn. As mentioned at the start we have players of both styles in UK. Many ho follow the first sequence (the minority) trace their playing back ither to the Muskett Method or to lessons from Michael, but they ometimes mention Clastrier's teaching too. I am writing this because I think it is important for the many owners f the Muskett Method (especially beginners who have not had chance o discuss this issue with other players) to realise that the technique escribed is not the one mostly widely taught. I am hesitant to riticise the Method, for it is an excellent and valuable book, and I ould advise all beginners to have a copy. However, it is my personal pinion that when it comes to the description of the trompette echnique, it is better for most players to follow the sequence escribed by Maxou, starting with a down-stroke from the first joint f the thumb, and ending with the 4th stroke as a sharp push away from he body using the ball of the thumb. Neil Brook has illustrated it n his web site ttp://www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk/trompett.html nd indeed shown it on his DVDs. To Michael I would end by saying this - you did ask the "new-timers" to xplain what is better about their approach. I think Simon's xplanation holds here, the downward stroke is a privileged point as t is assisted by gravity. Since most music, especially French folk ance music, has an accent on the first beat of the bar, it really is asier to get the feel of the music if the strongest coup is used here. This is the most clearly downward one, coup played with the humb itself, not that which uses the ball of the thumb. With ractice, of course, it is possible to put the accent on any of the our coups and indeed it is a good exercise to work on this. Also, I m not suggesting that players who start the coup-de-4 with the ball f the thumb should consider changing. However, for a beginner, the asiest way to master a basic trompette technique is NOT that escribed in the 3rd edition of the Muskett Method. I feel that his is a real shame, and I would suggest that maybe a fourth edition ould reconsider this aspect ? I am pretty sure that if the description n p.31 is revised by reordering the parts of the hand as discussed above, nd the description of the first coup as an action from the ball of the humb is revised to use the first joint of the thumb, almost everything else an be kept, provided some care is given to the direction denoted by 2-o'clock.in the diagrams. I know I am a "new timer", and do not really xpect to command your respect, but I am writing after quite a bit of hought and some consultation, and hope that on reflection you will ee this as a constructive contribution to the debate. BTW - Maxou is teaching next weekend in Bath and I know he will be ddressing both beginners and teachers in his workshops - I am sure he question of trompette technique will be covered! with best wishes to all, Paul -- ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google roups "hurdygurdy" group. o post to this group, send email to [email protected] o unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] or more options, visit this group at ttp://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at ttp://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts from new ubscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "hurdygurdy" group. 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