Hi Scott, indeed I wasn't really trying to imply right vs wrong. The thread was about teaching and the use of method books, and the focus is on people who don't yet play. Usually a new player, armed with a method, will start working on their technique and at some stage (the sooner the better!) seek help from a teacher or a more experienced player. I think it is helpful if people are guided by a method towards the "consensus" so that when they seek help, they will be refining what they have learnt, not being challenged to re-learn. Whether it is intentional or not (Michael's email which started this discussion suggests it is not) the 3rd edition of the Muskett method leads to a technique which is out-of-sync with most players and almost all teachers. I think it helpful for this to be clearly understood, but I haven't seen it discussed in public yet, hence my posting. Paul
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 5:42 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Paul, > > I have played and watched players from around the world and I find that you > can start in any position that you would like, as long as you never plan to > play with anyone else. If, however, you plan to play with others you will > find that by using a position other than the down for one (as described > using the thumb), you will find yourself quickly out of time or out of place > as you play. The "down for one" idea is not just to say "I am right and you > are wrong", rather it is to keep the rhythm in a group of players. If all of > the players play in the same position it is easy to get back into the proper > rhythm and timing for the tune and help keep those around you in time also. > > I find that if someone is playing in a position that is odd (as it relates > to my playing) it tends to throw my timing off and I have to turn away from > the player to get the timing right. > > That said, you should be able to START a tune in any position > (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,8 3/4 e.g. pick-up note) as long as the timing remains the > same as those around you and that the 1 remains at the top when all around > you play 1 from the top/down. Given that pretty much every one I know plays > the French style (Maxou, Bouffard, Chabenat, Jolivet, Wascher (yes I know > he's German, or are you Austrian, Simon?), Pignol, etc.) I am planning on > sticking with the 1 down pattern. > > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Sherwood <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Mon, Oct 18, 2010 2:26 pm > Subject: Re: [HG-new] teaching & books > > Dear Michael, Simon, and all, > > A month or so ago, Michael raised a challenge to some of us > >> We were taught by both [Rivière and Clastrier] ito start the first >> stroke at a notional 12.00 by the clock, but there seems to be a new >> school who start at 3.00. I don't see any advantage in this. Perhaps >> some new timer would explain the reasoning" > > and Simon responded: > >> probably its all mainly a question of description. I would describe the >> position of the first stroke as 'about half past one' but depending on the >> geometry of player plus instrument. ..... > > The discussion has since gone rather quiet. I would like to respond, > to respectfully take issue with both Michael's reference to a "new > school" and Simon's explanation of the issue being one of description. > > In my experience of talking to, and observing, a number of UK and > French players there are indeed two distinct "schools" of playing, > with experienced and highly proficient players in both schools. As > such it is common to find that in a typical UK hurdy-gurdy workshop of > intermediate or experienced players the participants are made up of a > made of a mixture of these. > > Rather than use the figures of the clock face, or even up/down > direction of the stroke, I would suggest the best way to compare and > the techniques of different players is to consider the parts of the > hand that are used to play the four different coups, assuming a > slightly open hand (forming a little cage). I would describe these > four parts as the hand as follows > > 1) the ball of the thumb, really the fleshy edge of the > palm rather than the thumb itself > 2) the first joint of the thumb > 3) the fingertips of 1st and 2nd fingers, usually working > together > 4) the upper side of the 3rd (ring) finger > > In my experience, most players agree that these are the four > contact points, but they differ with respect to which coups in the > coup-de-4 sequence each part of the hand is used for. The Muskett > Method (3rd edition, 1998 on p31) presents the parts of the hand in > the order given above, and as I understand the book the intention is > that the coup-de-4 is to be played with the impacts made in this > order, for exzmple, the description of the Coup-de-1 is is that it > should be made downwards with the ball of the thumb. > > In order to compare this approach with other teaching, I think it > helps to consider how these four parts of the hand tend to push the > manivelle in particular directions. > > 1) the palm of the hand provides an impact away from the player with > some degree of downward motion. The amount of downward motion > depends on the timing of the coup, the later it is made, the more > downwards it becomes. > 2) the thumb strike is well suited to driving the knob almost directly > downward > 3) the 1st and 2nd fingers pull the knob towards the player > 4) the side of the ring finger works best when providing an upward > impact > > The approach I remember from French teachers such as Maxou, > Bouffard, Chabenat, Pignol and others, the first joint of the thumb is > used to play the first coup. To me, this coincides with Simon's > description. But rather than dwelling on the position of the coup as > measured on a clock face , or exactly which bit of the thumb is used, > I think it is more helpful to consider what happens next. This makes > the distinction between the techniques more explicit. From Maxou's > book (Cahier de répertoire), there is a brief recap of the whole > coup-de-4 at the start, I would pick out the key descriptors > > 1. Frappé > 2. Tiré > 3. Levé > 4. Poussé > > So after the first coup, we then pull towards the player, then lift, > and finally push away from the player. Clearly the thumb is used for > 1., the 1st and 2nd fingers for 2. the ring finger for 3, and the ball > of the thumb would come into play in the final 4th coup, but here it > is used to push away, rather than initiate a downward motion (as > in the Muskett method, for the 1st coup). > > To play with this technique, which I understand is quite traditional > and not a "new school" at all, the parts of the hand have to be used in > the sequence > > 1) the first joint of the thumb > 2) the fingertips of the 1st and 2nd fingers > 3) the side of the 3rd (ring) finger > 4) the ball of the thumb > > So I am quite confident that the interpretation of the Muskett method > as presented earlier in this message is out-of-step with the technique > of most French players (Clastrier, I understand, being a notable > exception). It is different by one step in the sequence of parts of > the hand, or therefore by approximately one quarter of a turn. > > As mentioned at the start we have players of both styles in UK. Many > who follow the first sequence (the minority) trace their playing back > either to the Muskett Method or to lessons from Michael, but they > sometimes mention Clastrier's teaching too. > > I am writing this because I think it is important for the many owners > of the Muskett Method (especially beginners who have not had chance > to discuss this issue with other players) to realise that the technique > described is not the one mostly widely taught. I am hesitant to > criticise the Method, for it is an excellent and valuable book, and I > would advise all beginners to have a copy. However, it is my personal > opinion that when it comes to the description of the trompette > technique, it is better for most players to follow the sequence > described by Maxou, starting with a down-stroke from the first joint > of the thumb, and ending with the 4th stroke as a sharp push away from > the body using the ball of the thumb. Neil Brook has illustrated it > on his web site > http://www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk/trompett.html > and indeed shown it on his DVDs. > > To Michael I would end by saying this - you did ask the "new-timers" to > explain what is better about their approach. I think Simon's > explanation holds here, the downward stroke is a privileged point as > it is assisted by gravity. Since most music, especially French folk > dance music, has an accent on the first beat of the bar, it really is > easier to get the feel of the music if the strongest coup is used > there. This is the most clearly downward one, coup played with the > thumb itself, not that which uses the ball of the thumb. With > practice, of course, it is possible to put the accent on any of the > four coups and indeed it is a good exercise to work on this. Also, I > am not suggesting that players who start the coup-de-4 with the ball > of the thumb should consider changing. However, for a beginner, the > easiest way to master a basic trompette technique is NOT that > described in the 3rd edition of the Muskett Method. I feel that > this is a real shame, and I would suggest that maybe a fourth edition > could reconsider this aspect ? I am pretty sure that if the description > on p.31 is revised by reordering the parts of the hand as discussed above, > and the description of the first coup as an action from the ball of the > thumb is revised to use the first joint of the thumb, almost everything else > can be kept, provided some care is given to the direction denoted by > 12-o'clock.in > the diagrams. I know I am a "new timer", and do not really > expect to command your respect, but I am writing after quite a bit of > thought and some consultation, and hope that on reflection you will > see this as a constructive contribution to the debate. > > BTW - Maxou is teaching next weekend in Bath and I know he will be > addressing both beginners and teachers in his workshops - I am sure > the question of trompette technique will be covered! > > with best wishes to all, > > Paul > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "hurdygurdy" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy > > The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at > http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts from new > subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "hurdygurdy" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy > > The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at > http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts from new > subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "hurdygurdy" group. 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