Chris, (disclaimer: everything I write is my own opinion :) )
I'm not trying to start an argument, only want to state my own experience in a friendly way.I agree with much that you have wrote, but disagree with this: "The individual who wants desperately to build an instrument that provides sounds similar to the things they hear on CD, because of the novelty or uniqueness of the instrument, can build a functional 'hurdy gurdy sound generator' without too much fuss, but it won't generate every HG sound, or do so with the quality of a professional instrument. But it will satisfy the majority of fiddlers." Someone who really wants to build a fine instrument with a modest but adequate wood shop setup, can, if they are patient, have woodworking experience and do their homework, build a very good sounding instrument that can be used for any level of playing. Maybe not the first instrument, but within a few builds. Material cost is no more for a handmade one than a pro one (good wood is good wood). I've been using mine for 12 years now and have it played by a few pros, and have had it in many festival workshops (including some I hosted) where it was played among other gurdy players and it held it's own as well as any three stringed model there, including some big name ones. I've had people come up to me and say they liked the sweet tone of mine better than the brasher tone of some expensive instruments there. It was built with the idea of having a sweet tone at a volume level comfortable to sing with. The tone on all of them will vary a lot from one maker to the next, so who is to say which sounds best between instruments? As a violin repairman, I have played and set up hundreds of violins, starting long before I tried building an instrument. I've played these one after the other and have been amazed how greatly similar looking instruments can sound so different regardless of maker's reputation. Much (but certainly not all) of the key is the final set-up and tuning. I've actually heard a cheap Chinese violin sound better than some well known vintage ones from reputable builders. I set up a $150 Chinese violin and a couple of good vintage ones once the best I could make them. I did this comparison for some friends of mine, and more chose the cheap violin over the Europen one (that was much better built) for tone. One can never tell what someone else will prefer. Stradivari or Stainer? Who's to say which is better (I play an old Hopf and love it!) I know a guy with a beautiful homemade violin he built a few years ago. It's the only one he's made so far. Looks and sounds very good, and plays with a good feel. He never made one before, nor has he built another, but he has tinkered with wood a long time. Believe me, I'm not trying to belittle pro makers. These instruments take a long time to make and are worth paying a lot of money for. It's just not the way some of us choose to go who are still picky about the sound and playability of their instruments. Some of us just plain can't afford one, too. I may have used the wrong phrase when I said "fit and finish". My instrument has everything fitting pretty good, but was intentionally not finished with a high quality finish and looks primitive. I wanted it to look "folky", like a street beggar would use. If I wanted to make it look professional, I would have, although it would have taken longer to finish (I'm not known for extreme patience when making something for myself). :) Even my first mountain dulcimer looked and sounded very good, and by number three was holding its own with pro models, both looks and sounds. I have also made a very good looking Irish bouzouki that plays very well after two practice instruments. It was custom ordered and the buyer is very pleased with it and plays professionally. I've had others ask me to make one just like it, but I wasn't interested. I've had no training other than a high school shop class back in the stone age, but have a great love of both woodworking and tinkering. I'm sure I'm not unique. Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that someone with a lot of woodworking skill and already has some shop tools can, indeed, make a great instrument in just a few tries, and save money. However, they need good woodworking skills, good plans for the first one, anyway, and a hell of a lot of patience (not to mention a lot of spare time). Not many can do this, but some can (I know another guy I met at a festival a few years back who has built three so far that I know of. The last two would past muster with anyone but the most picky musicians possible). I would never discourage someone from giving it a try, but would caution them on what to expect. I also would not recommend buying a lot of tools just to build one and try to save money. If you have the tools already and woodworking experience, and are willing to spend the time, you can get very good results without spending a lot. BTW, I probably put more time into fine tuning the instrument after it was built than it took to build it. Setup, again... Dave :) The Hurdy-Gurdy Man, ________________________________ From: Kazimierz Verkmastare <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction There seems to be a non-argument argument going on about this topic. There are several levels of gurdys, and several levels of music to be played. I for one am quite satisfied with my very first sinphone, as far as playing quasi-medieval and simple Celtic and faked Breton folk music goes it does well. But I wouldn't dare try to play some of the more complicated dance stuff. And if you gave it to Giles or Patrick and asked them, they would probably politely say "It is a very nice instrument' and fiddle around on it for a while getting the most out of it's potential, but they would never want to use it to perform. And that is OK. Because simply, I built a wheel fiddle with a tangent keybox, and it works fine. But I have heard and played around on really good gurdies, and mine simply doesn't compare in any real valuable way. There are things about a full-featured gurdy that cannot be accomplished without professional fit and finish, without hundreds or thousands of hours of research and experimentation (or at least access to someone who already has the answers and is willing to help). So what I built is more of a gurdy than your typical HGLO, but it is not a fine instrument. And a fine instrument is what a lot of players want when they start, because they want the nuance, the undertones, the life that they hear coming from a good instrument, not the well-intoned and just-tempered professional cat torture noises that are the sounds produced by a simple wheel fiddle. I watch the videos of Patrick and Giles and Melissa and others who play well on full-featured gurdies, and I realize that I am going to have to either buy or build a better instrument before I can fulfill my dream of playing the things that only gurdies (not simple wheel-fiddles) can play. It is sort of like saying you built a really great Moraharp. If what you want to play is the music of the 1600's and you are satisfied with the limitations of the instrument, then you succeeded, but you did not build a really nice example of what the world considers a nyckleharp. And such it is, in my experience, with the early examples of individuals handmade gurdies. And if you are not looking to improve fit and finish and features, you stay at the level of building nice, but inherantly limited, instruments that are imminently suitable for the more basic roles. This is not to belittle first-time builders, the work most produce is better by far than some of the cheaper 'production' instruments or earlier kits would ever be. But until you get your hands on a professionally build, professionally engineered full featured gurdy (not the high-end stuff, but most makers midrange instruments) and actually spend some time experiencing firsthand the nearly limitless possibilities from one of these instruments, you won't be able to properly categorize your own work or know how to improve it. I know, I was crushed when I had to actually compare my sinphone to a real full-featured gurdy. Took a while for me to become happy with my instrument again, but only with the realization that it does what I need it to do very well, but doesn't do what I want ultimately to do at all. So I think the statements being made here are for those who are more player than builder, or at least equal parts of both. When you approach the gurdy with the idea that you ultimately want to be a performer the level of Patrick or Giles, then you want the ultimate from your instrument, and it is nearly impossible to build as an amateur an instrument of this quality on a ridiculously low budget and without a bunch of tools. But if you are a tinkerer, and like to build something that works and your musical and performance goals aren't as lofty as the aforementioned pros, then your chances of meeting your expectations suddenly increase. I for one am an avid craftsman who wants the best gurdy that can be made, and don't want to buy it because I simply need to (part of my genetics, I guess) be responsible for the design and construction of this modern masterpiece. I have been working on my opus for several years now, working, fitting, reworking, refining, learning, getting close to finished and throwing the whole thing away and starting over, and I know that I have piled 2 or 3 times the money in materials, tools, and time into this thing than it would have cost to buy a great gurdy from a pro. Each of my projects would have yielded an instrument imminently playable and exponentially better than my current sinphone, and even unfinished they have been of value. But as none would lead to what I want out of this next gurdy, there was no use putting more investment into them. So here it is in a nutshell. A tinkerer can build a nice folk/pirate/'Celtic' simple wheel fiddle with nice tone and the ability to play to a certain level, and can expect to be able to build it first try with some tinkering, and if that is your ultimate goal, then you will be 100% satisfied. A tinkerer will most likely not build a full featured, professionally balanced and voiced instrument that suits the needs of higher end performers until building and experimenting with a whole lot of not-up-to-par instruments, and along the way will discover that Gurdy makers do not make an obscene profit, their raw budget is usually more than most folks want to spend on a finished instrument, and the margin is close. A high-level performer, wanting a great instrument, does not have the same odds of creating one himself first (or fifth, for that matter), especially if the prime consideration is budgetary. The individual who wants desperately to build an instrument that provides sounds similar to the things they hear on CD, because of the novelty or uniqueness of the instrument, can build a functional 'hurdy gurdy sound generator' without too much fuss, but it won't generate every HG sound, or do so with the quality of a professional instrument. But it will satisfy the majority of fiddlers. But the individual addicted to craftwork, who is also driven to own and use the best instruments to the best of his abilities, will fail or succeed on the merits of his determination and the limits of his wallet. The professionals came mostly from this group, and if you are in this group, you already know the answer to "is there an affordable way to build a really good HG". It is simply "How affordable is a couple of thousand or more dollars to your budget?" Chris > Just jumping in on this, I have built several hurdy-gurdies from > scratch. Only the first one had playing issues. I use only typical > shop tools that most garage tinkerers would have around (antique > table say, Chinese scroll saw, small Chinese drill press and small > bench sander and a bunch of basic hand tools, and some homemade > spool clamps. I have less into my shop tools than most people pay > for a new hurdy-gurdy from a reputable builder, and I can use them > over and over for other projects. I have never spent more than $150 > dollars for instrument parts, and have not spent more than three or > four months of three to six hour days about four days a week on > building one. It is fun and only requires a modest amount of > woodworking skill and a lot of patience. Anyone who has heard my > hurdy-gurdy I've been playing since 2000 > can vouch for the sound quality. The looks are a bit primitive > compared to the fit and finish of someone who does this for a > living, but it does have a rather cool handmade folk look to it. > Perfect for the corner beggar-man hurdy-gurdy player. Besides that, > it was fun to build! > > > Dave in Michigan > > > The Hurdy-Gurdy Man, > > > From: Steven Tucker <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:16 PM > Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction That > is a very curious statement to make: That it will cost a lot of > money to make your own instrument. > > I'm fairly certain that most hurdy gurdies made in the last > thousand years prior to the 1950s were all made with hand tools -- > probably just a few saws, a carving knife, and maybe a gouge or > two. Sure, you can use a 10,000 dollar band saw to cut the wood, > but a hand made Bow Saw will work just fine. It will take about > twenty times longer is all. > > > Perhaps you're also accounting for time spent. With expensive > specialized tools and jigs a professional builder might take 20 to > 200 hours building an instrument (depending on the "add-ons" such > as inlay). A beginning woodworker with a couple of hand tools > might expect to spend 50 to 500 hundred hours building a relatively > simple instrument. > > > So if you are one of those people who believe that the only > instrument worth having is one with superior craftsmanship, > exquisite detail work, a flawless mirror finish, and a famous > maker's name, then you'll just have to pay the big money. If > you're a musician and just want a great sounding personal > instrument (and don't have a rich uncle or girlfriend) then I say > grab the tools you have, gather the materials you can find and > start putting in some hours. > > > -S > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Augusto de Ornellas Abreu > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Just be prepared to spend a lot more than the cost of a luthier- >> made gurdy if you want to build your own. >> > You will have to go through many fumbled attempts when building > each of the pieces, you will have to make your own specialized > tools, you will need to get a hold of some expensive equipment to > make those tools and many of the specialized parts (you can save by > buying some more difficult parts from HGCrafters, etc, for example) > >> > Building a gurdy from scratch makes no sense if you think about > cost only. You will probably spend way more than if you just bought > one from a maker. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "hurdygurdy" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To > unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] For more options, visit > this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy The rules > of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at > http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts > from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "hurdygurdy" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "hurdygurdy" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster.
