David,

Since you are obviously my elder in the field, please enlighten me as to what 
the VVDS was before the ICF catalog came along.  When I started, VSAM catalogs 
were still a thing (as were CVOLs I think) but we never had them at my shop.  I 
was taught that the VVDS and BCS structures were the 2 components of an ICF 
catalog, created to overcome shortcomings of the VSAM catalog.  Did VVDS's 
exist before the ICF catalog or were they introduced with ICF?  

Rex

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 9:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: VTOCs vs. catalogs

Hi Rex,
You said: "...I never worked with either CVOLs or VSAM catalogs ..." If I may 
take the Bible out of context, please see: DE 32:7 זְקֵנֶ֖יךָ וְיֹ֥אמְרוּ לָֽךְ 
"... Remember the days of old, Consider the years of ages past; Ask your 
parent, who will inform you, Your elders, who will tell you: ..."
Regards,. David
On 2024-05-24 10:12, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> This is the part I was commenting on.  " Then came  VSAM  (and VVDS?) and 
> VSAM Catalogs,...".  I took that comment as being Dave guessing that possibly 
> the VVDS came along with VSAM catalogs which I believe were a stepping stone 
> between CVOLs and ICF catalogs.  I never worked with either CVOLs or VSAM 
> catalogs but I was pretty sure the VVDS came along with the ICF.
>
> Rex
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List<IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>  On 
> Behalf Of David Spiegel
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 8:55 AM
> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: VTOCs vs. catalogs
>
> Hi Rex,
> "...Followed by SMS and VVDS for non-VSAM datasets ..."
> This was meant (AFAIK) to state that VVDS for Non-VSAMs came into use with 
> SMS-Controlled DASD Volumes.
> It is also true that VVDSs were introduced with ICF Catalogs (circa 1981, 
> recalled and re-released in 1982).
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2024-05-24 09:44, Pommier, Rex wrote:
>> Didn't the VVDS come along with the ICF catalog structure?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List<IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>   On
>> Behalf Of Gibney, Dave
>> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2024 10:32 PM To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: VTOCs vs. catalogs
>>
>> All speculation on my part. One system with no DASD, you need neither.
>> On a system with only one, of just a few DASD volumes, a VTOC is required to 
>> say where on the volume a dataset is and the basic attributes of PS and PDS 
>> datasets.
>>
>> Once you get to several always mounted DASSD volumes, it becomes a pain to 
>> need to remember and specify VOLSER in the JCL.
>>
>> CVOLs where an early attempt to solve this problem. Then came  VSAM 
>> (and VVDS?) and VSAM Catalogs, and somewhile later ECf/Catalogs.
>> Followed by SMS and VVDS for non-VSAM datasets
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List<IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>   On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2024 8:24 PM To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: VTOCs vs. catalogs
>>>
>>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>>>
>>> For the most part the catalog lets you locate your dataset no matter 
>>> which volume you put it on.
>>> For non-vsam, that is about all that is stored, dataset 
>>> characteristics are in the VTOC.
>>> And with non-SMS volumes you can have uncataloged datasets on DASD 
>>> or tape.
>>>
>>> VSAM came from the Future Systems development as a complete 
>>> replacement, Lynn Wheeler has posts about that.
>>> It was cut back to be an addition to MVS, then combined with CVOL 
>>> catalogs to ICF.
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 9:32 PM Phil Smith III<li...@akphs.com>   wrote:
>>>> I'm curious whether any of you old-timers can explain why we have 
>>>> both VTOCs and catalogs. I'm guessing it comes down to (a) VTOCs 
>>>> came first and catalogs were added to solve some problem (what?) 
>>>> and/or (b) catalogs
>>> were added to save some I/O and/or memory, back when a bit of those 
>>> mattered. But I'd like to understand. Anyone?
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
>>> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>>>
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