One of the things I notice - and it can come from anyone anywhere but it's 
more common with newer people - is an ill-defined problem statement.

The temptation to wordsmith the problem into shape is immense and not 
wrong. It can feel a bit brutal and ugly sometimes but bear with us: We're 
trying to be helpful.

But I appreciate "you haven't defined your problem properly" or "you're 
asking the wrong question"  can be offputting. Sorry about that and I'm 
not sure how to make it better.

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer,
zChampion, Principal Systems Investigator,
Worldwide Banking Center of Excellence, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

email: [email protected]

Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker
Blog: 
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/MartinPacker



From:   "Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh" 
<[email protected]>
To:     [email protected]
Date:   23/04/2014 09:48
Subject:        Re: Sorry state of IT education?
Sent by:        IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]>



> Generally these outsourcing services are not sold as "we can charge you 
less because we hire ill trained young Indians to replace your experienced 
technical people"! They are more likely to be sold using a combination of 
"wages for well trained technical people in India are much lower than they 
are in US/Canada/UK/etc." and "your experienced technical people are 
overpaid prima donnas who deserve some pain", both of which arguments 
probably appeal to some extent to the C-suite crowd who are not themselves 
likely to face being outsourced any time soon.

I concur. All I'm saying is - it's not right to point the finger at us 
professionals who are already left trying to fit in the shoes of technical 
experts. But it's always the case that "the company" is fed up with the 
technical people and not at management for selling them on something 
that's less than true (Gee.. look how much I can cut your costs!). I fail 
to see the correlation. With just a look at a person, you could guess 
his/her age and how much he/she could have explored mainframes.

> I have noted that a number of the Indian participants on these lists 
feel the need to give themselves a "Western" nom de plume (nom de 
clavier?). I hope that this isn't from fear of not being welcomed, or of 
being treated as a "drone", but I suspect it is.

It is. I've seen a few cases in forums where someone asks for help on a 
problem (granted, he/she hasn't put the requirement across completely), 
and most of the experts just say - "R.T.F.M".
It's better to not say anything than to say that. I mean, what good is 
that? There are loads of manuals; there's no need to spoon feed I agree, 
but not even point the direction?

- Vignesh
Mainframe Admin

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[email protected]] On 
Behalf Of Tony Harminc
Sent: 22 April 2014 23:39
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Sorry state of IT education?

On 22 April 2014 15:45, Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh 
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I personally take offense to the "drone" bashing. Because I'm a "drone" 
now, apparently.

I read this not as drone bashing, but as management bashing. The word 
"drone" with its implication of idleness and other even less appropriate 
functions is not well applied here, but it has come into common use.

> All of these comments seem to be from the perspective of higher ups
> and folks who've had - years-of experience on the mainframe. It simply
> isn't fair to expect the same depth of knowledge from a (relatively)
> newcomer. Without a doubt, the technology that is mainframe, is
> massive. It's not sane to expect some 100,000 manuals get cooked right 
into an IT professional, when most of the folks on this (& elsewhere) list 
have acquired the knowledge over years of beating on their craft.

Indeed it isn't. And while I think you will find a friendly welcome here 
for anyone who is able and willing to learn, things get a bit tricky when 
inability is because of lack of time and/or opportunity rather than of 
willingness or native intelligence.

> You ought to consider the conditions under which we're
> working/learning. When a service provider takes up your IT
> infrastructure service support, there's a reason that it's achievable at 
just x% of what it cost earlier. No points for figuring out where that 
money is cut out from.

Generally these outsourcing services are not sold as "we can charge you 
less because we hire ill trained young Indians to replace your experienced 
technical people"! They are more likely to be sold using a combination of 
"wages for well trained technical people in India are much lower than they 
are in US/Canada/UK/etc." and "your experienced technical people are 
overpaid prima donnas who deserve some pain", both of which arguments 
probably appeal to some extent to the C-suite crowd who are not themselves 
likely to face being outsourced any time soon.

But in fact, of course, the first claim is closer to the truth than the 
latter, and the lack of appropriate training and opportunity is largely 
disguised by the very distance and seen only in the long term results.

I have noted that a number of the Indian participants on these lists feel 
the need to give themselves a "Western" nom de plume (nom de clavier?). I 
hope that this isn't from fear of not being welcomed, or of being treated 
as a "drone", but I suspect it is.

Tony H.

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