Saludos. Es justo esa página: http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~harald2/grammars/grammars.html junto a su ampliación http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~harald2/grammars/more.html las webs que señalabamos el Martes, 31 de Oct, 2006 en los enlaces del final. Justo ahí: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg01221.html http://espanol.groups.yahoo.com/group/ideolengua/message/7914 Y las reiteramos otra vez el Viernes, 22 de Dic, 2006, justo tras la PS en http://espanol.groups.yahoo.com/group/ideolengua/message/7999 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0612c&L=ideolengua&D=1&F=&S=&P=1362 Por cierto al buscar ahora en Google omnial + grammar lo que aparece en primer lugar es la gramática de la defensa de la Wiki (defensa V, Grammar Bocata), presente en: http://www.google.es/search?q=omnial+grammar&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.google:es-ES:official&client=firefox-a http://omnial.tripod.com/abc/ O al final de: http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmnial&diff=6024516&oldid=6020809 Job PS Respecto a lo que comenta Aluonis tal parece que ese es un español alternativo, pero oscuro, "alumínico" o "afotónico", de pocas luces pues las hojas informando de la venta y de su situación con protomapa incluido fueron suficientes para localizarle y detenerle más facil imposible, como en la película. Otra cosa. El sample de esta semana está en un disco editado en USA pero nada de su libreto o carátula permite deducir el idioma. Es jazz, pero solo la frase que da nombre a la canción está en Inglés. El idioma es una, al parecer, irresoluble incógnita: http://omnial.tripod.com/888 --- En [email protected], "Danilo Vilicic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > Saludos, > en efecto, di con esa página hace unos días y también pensaba enviarla a > ideolengua, pero te me adelantaste. > Para los mapudungologos, nótese que están las gramáticas de Luis de Valdivia > (1606) y de Havestadt ("Chilidugu sive tractatus linguae chilensis"), del > siglo XVIII. > La "Grammaire de la langue Jagane" de Lucien Adam, de fines del siglo XIX, > elaborada con los materiales de T. Bridges. > > Es para volverse loco. > > Danilo Vilicic > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mariano Jc De Vierna Carles-Tolrá" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 2:42 PM > Subject: [ideoL] Enlace a pagina de 'gramáticas' > > > > Hola. > > Lo escrito en el asunto: > > http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~harald2/grammars/grammars.html > > Un saludo, > mariano > > [Se han eliminado los trozos de este mensaje que no contenían texto] > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IdeoLengua - Lista de Lingüistica e Idiomas Artificiales > Suscríbase en [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Informacion en http://ideolengua.cjb.net > Desglose temático > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ideolengua/files/Administracion/top-ideol.html > > > > Enlaces a Yahoo! Grupos > http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CONLANG http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A0=AUXLANG http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/ideolengua.html http://www.bethisad.com/list.htm http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram%C3%A1tica_del_espa%C3%B1ol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar http://www.langmaker.com/db/Omnial_Babel_Text http://omnial.tripod.com/dokumentes http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0612c&L=ideolengua&D=1&F=&S=&P=869 http://www.softcatala.com/traductor http://webcam.comunitatvalenciana.com/webcam.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator_abuse http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Main_Page http://doctorjb.blogspot.com http://www.elcastellano.org/ns/edicion/2006/septiembre/quechua.html http://www.proel.org/mundo/estrechoto.htm http://www.proel.org/mundo/pidgin.htm http://www.proel.org/mundo/criollo.htm http://dedalvs.free.fr/zhyler/adjectives.html http://www.tendencias21.net/El-lenguaje-condiciona-parcialmente-la-percepcion-vi\ sual_a863.html http://www.tendencias21.net/Los-conceptos-geometricos-son-innatos-en-nuestra-esp\ ecie_a850.html http://www.elpais.es/articulo/semana/Homero/escribia/espanol/elpbabsem/20061028e\ lpbabese_1/Tes/ http://www.jmnoticias.com/index.php?action=fullnews&id=71# http://www.buenosaires.gov.ar/areas/salud/dircap/mat/examenesviejos/2003/fono.ht\ m http://www.elcastellano.org/ns/edicion/2006/septiembre/silbido.html http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=7171 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v433/n7021/full/433031a.html http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmn\ ial&diff=6024516&oldid=6020809 / http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmn\ ial&diff=6059756&oldid=6029344 http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmn\ ial&diff=6069743&oldid=6069708 Hello Padraic. Many thanks for answering and for your very nice words, > No need to apologise! The deletion time wast very heavy for us! ¡ Sorry! > > > Omnial is nice, as far as auxlangs go, but it would really > have to be something great before we should all get > excited! The problem with any new auxlang, especially one > based on European / Romance roots is that it basically > reinvents the wheel -- it's been done already and done very > well several times. Interlingua and Esperanto come to mind > immediately as the major players. Latine sine Inflexione, > Lingua Franca Nova, and a whole host of others fill out > that branch of the Euroclone family tree. All nice in their > own way, but ultimately redundant. > In the New Grammar 2007 (equal to Grammar Bocata of the Wiki, in Defensa V) that doesn't want to occupy the place of Old grammar (2004), there were marked in red some contributions of Omnial: http://omnial.tripod.com/abc 1) The evolution diachronic of the conlang, with the tense variation of the verbal adjectives, "payable", "payinde", "payonde", "payunde" (in the passive and also in the active adjectives), and many other points of evolution from Amnial to Omnial. 2) The new word building system of Omnial, with a new solution to the problems of the reversibility and also of (or without) hipersuffixation, with only the following three rules: a.- The ending vowel in any word has never semantic meaning. b.- The affixes of the verb are always different to the ones of the noun and the adjective. c.- To form verbs from nouns and adjectives the suffixes are used only if necessary because usually the ending '-ar' is sufficient, since (for the reason that) is very easy the immediate derivation de verbs from adjectives (meaning be become) and the immediate derivation de verbs from substantives (meaning production (most often), use, habit ) 3) The infinite number of correlatives and interrogatives in Omnial: Ki + any name + "-al" or "-im": --> "kisizal?" , "kibusim?", "kimodim?" etc. And many others: 4- Regular but not monotonous accentuation. 5- Regular pronunciation of the acronyms and initialisms. 6- The name of the letters, used for spelling, are ordinary words. 7- Subjective gender ("biciklin"). 8- Forming the plural (-s/-es) and the gender (-in/-ul ) in the pronouns quite equal to the substantives, 9- Pronominal addition ("mitual strate de nosal urbe"), 10- Adjectivation of the plural ("ilesal") of some pronouns, 11- Gerund in "im" as in the derived adverbs. 12- Easy combination of imperative and conditional with the tense morphemes : "If mi habitus " 13- Use of the same suffix "-al" as possessive in the sustantives, equal in pronouns, and also equal in the correlatives. 14- Inequality comparative with "aniso" (like the scientific words as "anisocitosis" and anisocoriosis" 15.-Tense variation in prepositions and adverbs. 16- Greek roots for the numbers, known in the technical and scientific vocabulary. (hexagon for example) 17- Inclusion of the most frequent (only these) scientific roots in the Omnial vocabulary. 18- Easy rules for euphony in the word formation, adding the "o" between both roots ( euphonic epenthesis) like in the scientific vocabulary: idear + lingue --> ideolingue; artre + skopiar --> artroskopiar You can see all at the Omnial web: http://omnial.tripod.com/abc and also at the Spanish Wiki http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmnial&diff=6024516&oldid=6020809 By the other hand, at the Google it is easy to find concepts that were developed in Omnial, like: eubilingue (prepuberal), bilinguoide (postpuberal), linguistic big crunch, lexicocrinia y lexicorrea. primolingual horror vacuii linguistical difficult constant (all the languages are equally difficult to learn to everybody), etc, http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=die-archive%40gmx.net&q=elx2003 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/ideolengua.html > That said, the issue on Wikipedia has _always_ been with > the grammar article posted there. The votes in favour of > Omnial's deletion are pretty plain: it's your own work > (that's clearly not allowed!) It was my sister (not me, and nor my father, who now is not with us) who uploaded the articles to the Wiki, after copying the information from the mails sent to Langmaker and Ideolengua some time before: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/langmaker2/message/8199 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0402c&L=ideolengua&P=2372 All of this always in an anonymous way, therefore there is no vanity. In the web you can clearly see that the el x JB (from 2003 to 2004 and with many difficulties to use the mail) is very different to the ones JoBs of 2006 (after de first deletion's votes). http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consultas_de_borrado/Omnial_%28archivo%29 Then it was begun a web page and a weekly collaboration in Ideolengua. During one year the mails were written in different styles similar to the known French collective mathematic. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=ideolengua The last post of JM was in Wednesday, 10th of March, 2004: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0403b&L=ideolengua&D=1&F=&S=&P=283 And he never answered in some forums, with unknown password for the others. http://feedback.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=elx2003 And it didn't appear again, until more than a year later, Saturday 20th August: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0508c&L=ideolengua&D=1&F=&S=&P=1348 > and it's way too long and > detailed for a _general_purpose_ encyclopedia. I've already > offered you a good and reasonable example for a nearly > deletion-proof article before (in fact, it's in the email > quoted below). I still _strongly_ suggest you do that > rather than complain when your grammar treatise is deleted > from the Wikipedia! > > > I notice that you've managed to embed a pretty complete > Omnial grammar within the Vote for Deletion article. Since > that will be archived, eventually, that was pretty clever > on your part! In other words, while the old Omnial ariticle > is gone for ever, it will always live on within its own > Vote for Deletion page. > When the vote time was closed it is not legal to modify the page but it was modified (Omnial grammar was then and there cut) deleting 4 of the 8 defensive emails, and with them the most important: the grammar that was introduced in the 5th defence, which doesn't appear there: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consultas_de_borrado/Omnial But the cut text appears in the hidden history (Defensa V Grammar Bocata): http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmnial&diff=6059789&oldid=6059776 And also is there the heptalingual vocabulary: http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmnial&diff=6069743&oldid=6069708 And also the Open office orthographic corrector (dictionary and grammar): http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmnial&diff=6070058&oldid=6070029 and also in the net: http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/[email protected]/5612857.html Now the last version of the orthographic corrector (8.88), of easy installation, is here: http://omnial.tripod.com/openoffice > I never had the opportunity to visit Alicante, more's the > pity! I lived in Madrid for a while, and visited Barcelona, > Toledo and Cordoba. It is never late for that, and now can be the timely moment, because now it is being celebrated the American's cup in our county (Comunidad Valenciana, at the east of Spain): in the Mare nostrum (of the Antic Roma) because the last American's cup edition winner was Switzerland and it doesn't have sea, so they chose the Mediterranean sea, then Spain, and then our county: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_%28autonomous_community%29 http://www.americascup.com/en/ Some days ago the competition began. Congratulations for the ranking of the BMW ORACLE Racing !! > > > It's running into _exactly_ and precisely the > > > same problem the article on the English Wikipedia > > > had a year or so ago, namely, you've got a whole > > > bloody grammar sketch there. Nobody (at least not > > > your average Wikipedia user) is interested in > > > your conlang/auxlang's grammar sketch. Save that > > > for the website, as I said last time this issue > > > came up! > > > > > > If I may suggest: > > > > > > Keep the opening three sentences as a quick > > > intriduction to what Omnial is about. Erase the > > > grammar sketch entirely. Keep the history > > > section, as THAT is what should be in the > > > Wikipedia article. Keep the links sections and > > > add a link to Omnial's webpage, where the > > > interested reader can look at the grammar. > > > > > > Oh, and make sure someone other than the > > > author(s) of the language writes the article. At > > > least in the English Wikipedia, they frown on > > > people writing articles about something they've > > > done or made. > > > > > > If the above had been what the English article > > > was like, it almost certainly wouldn't have been > > > deleted. >I'll leave you once again wishing you would consider a > shorter, clearer and more descriptive Omnial article for > the Wikipedia. Please look at the article on Brithenig: > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brithenig > Brithenig is another conlang (though an artlang, not an > auxlang); and its article, too, has been nominated for > deletion on occasion. The Brithenig article has _survived_ > such nonsense for several reasons: Andrew (the inventor of > the language) did not also write the Wikipedia article; and > there is no long winded grammar exposition. > The article tells me what Brithenig is, who invented it, > and why it was invented. Five short and to the point > paragraphs. It ends with a short and well known text > example so I can get a sense for what the language looks > like. Finally, there is a link to the Page of Brithenig, > were I can learn all the little details of grammar. > If you do this with Omnial, I can guarantee above 75% that > the article will not be deleted. If you should try to place > the whole grammar on a Wikipedia article again, I would not > be surprised if it suffers another Vote for Deletion. I think you're right. Certainly we have already been informed that the Omnial deletion from the Wikis is reversible: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pol%C3%ADtica_de_borrado#Re-nominaciones_y_art.C3.ADculos_que_recurrentemente_tratan_de_borrarse During the vote time we made the following question: ¿Y que pasa si dentro de un mes alguien sube un artículo sobre el Omnial nuevo de cabo a rabo a la Wiki? ¿What would happen if in within a month somebody uploads a completely new article about the Omnial to the Wiki? This was the answer: Si es el mismo artículo, queda cubierto por esta votación. Si es otro artículo sobre el omnial, será juzgado sobre sus propios métodos If it is the same article it is affected by the same votes. If it is another article about the Omnial, it will be judged according to its own methods. But this is, now, .really It is another story. In this moment the Omnial page is one of the most surprising pages of the recent music culture. And there, in Omnial, it is compiled information that in no other place can be found world wide. This information doesn't finish increasing. Searching Omnial + Beatles in the Google, it appears in the first place: http://omnial.tripod.com/versions and also http://omnial.tripod.com/omnialmiscelane It wants to be a single web for a language that pretends to be at least singular. The language shows all its singularities and contributions marked in red in its grammar: There http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConsultas_de_borrado%2FOmnial&diff=6059789&oldid=6059776 or here: http://omnial.tripod.com/abc Best regards, and here, like always, rest a friend ! Job PS Y no es por insistir, pero es claro que si nuestro hobby o arte interesa como mucho a 3000 personas worldwide (1000 en el ámbito anglosajon y 2000 en el resto), todo ello sobre un total de 6000 millones de terrícolas, ello implica que hay una relación de SOLO un aficionado por cada dos millones de personas. Por ello, con criterios de proporcionalidad si una ideolengua interesa a solo 77 personas es como si una película interesara a ciento cincuenta millones de personas, pues difícil seria encontrar un solo humano al que no le guste en absoluto ningún film. Y es más que evidente que muchas películas están en la wiki sin haber alcanzado un millón de espectadores, por lo que sería multiplicarles por CIENTO CINCUENTA VECES su relevancia o interés en comparación al maltrato que se ha dado a los colangs en la Wiki hispana. There are a lot of articles in the Wikis about films, computer games, including VERY SMALL private islands, that "proportionally" are less interesting than quite a big number of conlangs, including the Omnial, that were interesting and continue being interesting. It's easy to compare the hispanic wiki with the other ones y así se puede ver que en la Hispana ya solo dejaron unas pocas, las esenciales, criterio diferente al de cualquier otra wiki. -------------¿ Suprimir a partir de aquí? -------> Preguntar a Anna Pero la lengua ha resucitado ahora y da vida a la que pretende ser una de las páginas más sorprendentes sobre la reciente cultura musical. http://omnial.tripod.com/omnialmiscelane Finalmente, por si te resulta curioso, ahí están los dos archivos (vocabulario y gramática para el corrector gramatical del Omnial en openoffice: http://omnial.tripod.com/openoffice Puedes ver su funcionamiento pues como se explica la instalación es muy sencilla. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IdeoLengua - Lista de Lingüistica e Idiomas Artificiales Suscríbase en [EMAIL PROTECTED] Informacion en http://ideolengua.cjb.net Desglose temático http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ideolengua/files/Administracion/top-ideol.html Enlaces a Yahoo! 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