Sorry for replying to this letter so late. It is a very busy time.
Manas Laha ends with:
> If you wish to forward our little discussion to ilug-cal, I have no
> reservations.
I have copied the forum on this reply. I hope this letter will get
others thinking about these ideas.
It is also suggested that this thread isn't really "Linux" related. I
would like to ask if this list is Linux focused, or if the members are
interested in discussions around Free Software and related areas
("Intellectual economics"?)
Sorry that this is long. I am copying the entire original as it was
not sent to this list.
On Wed, 29 May 2002, Manas Laha wrote:
> Hi!
>
> This message looks long because of all the excerpts from out earlier
> messages!
>
> Russell McOrmond wrote:
>
> > Late, but replying now...
> >
> > On Fri, 10 May 2002, Manas Laha wrote:
> >
> > > It is perhaps not true to say that the rich countries and their
> > > transnational software corporatons are responsible for the existence of
> > > this divide.
> >
> > > All the other chasms and divides, the digital one included, are
> > > manifestations of the attempt of the economic haves to fend off the
> > > have-nots.
> >
> > Do you see the self-called "First" nations as helping, or hindering,
> > this problem? My vantage point may be different but it has never seemed
> > to me that "we" (Western countries - not myself personally as I don't
> > feel personally connected) have not been helping. The economic divide is
> > one perpetuated by the economic systems promoted from the west, not solved
> > by it.
> >
> > India has it's own unique problems relating to language, religion, cast,
> > etc.....but I do think many economic problems are not entirely based in
> > the region (nor entirely external - I am not making that suggestion
> > eithor).
> >
> A difficult question to answer! The "first" world thinks first and
> foremost about maximizing benefits for itself. In order to do that, it
> certainly exploits the "third" world's resources. But, in its own
> interests, it also tries to see to it that the "third" world does not
> sink into utter chaos because of hunger and want, by helping out with
> material assistance, but for which many poor countries would have a much
> harder time. This was certainly true of India thiry or forty years ago.
> It would be unfair not to acknowledge this aspect of the involvement of
> the "first" world in the "third".
Do things ballance out - does the "good" that is done (In self interest
rather than for the benefit of others) outweigh the harm (also in
self-interest).
> What I am really unhappy about is that we, in India particularly and in
> the "third" world in general, are not doing much to help ourselves.
It is interesting, but my outsider perception has been different. I get
the impression that the Indian Government, and especially state
governments like WB, are doing pretty good given the resources they have.
> The local haves exploit the local havenots! And no less brutally than
> the "first" world exploits the "third". No amount of help from the
> "first" worls can help the "third" overcome its problems until the
> latter gets its own house in order. And for that we need more education,
> more empowerment for those at the very bottom of the pile. As I said
> earlier, this is happening in India, but rather slowly. I sometimes feel
> its a case of two steps forward and one step back -- some freedoms are
> given, some are taken away, periods of relative peace and quiet
> alternate with those of violent upheavals, and so forth.
> > > I must say that things _have_ improved on the whole for the majority of
> > > the Indian people. However, they are still too busy spending all their
> > > time making a living to be more than vaguely conscious of their rights
> > > to education and information. They do recognise that its important to
> > > educate their children, so today's Indian child has a much better chance
> > > of completing high school than did his parents. Perhaps, one day in the
> > > not too far future, the digital, linguistic, religious and, above all
> > > economic, divides will begin to close!
> >
> > I believe it is partly the responsibility of people like us who can
> > contemplate things to work to make things easier for others. Computer
> > knowledge/software is just a small piece of the puzzle, but it is a part
> > we can have a large effect on personally. My own involvement in trying to
> > educate the Canadian Government on Open Source issues has had a large
> > effect, and I am able to speak to audiences that I didn't even know
> > existed a few months ago.
>
> Yes, I see that you are actively involved in the Open Source movement.
> Here, computers have just begun to touch the lives of the common people:
> for example, computers have made a world of difference to long-distance
> railway travel and the telephone system. But we're not yet at the stage
> where the average Indian is very much aware about computer issues, or
> even about computers themselves.
I believe this is an important time. If computers are to have a
positive (rather than negative) influence on India, then ensuring that the
dependencies that exist elsewhere with computing (IE: the various
monopolies) are not simply adopted by India.
The more people who use computers, the harder it is to change things -
this is why you want to try to have the large adoption happen using
liberated/liberating information/software.
> (Excuse me if I seem to be drifting off-topic here. You may skip this
> paragraph if you wish.) The present generation of urban young Indians
> from relatively well-to-do homes all look Westward: those who can, go
> there. The US, Canada, Australia, anywhere. Those who cannot, draw their
> cultural sustenance from there: language, dress, music and all that. It
> is they who can make a real difference to the scene here since they have
> all the advantages relative to their fellow Indians, but they are not
> interested. I have a feeling this may be true of many other countries of
> the "third" world.
I am aware of this. Canada claims to feel hurt by some so-called "Brain
Drain" of the highest skilled workers to the USA. I have always found
this frustrating given where many of Canada's doctors and engineers come
from (IE: India). Canada has been the net benefactor of this "brain
drain", and yet still complains.
It is a hard ballance for people from India to try. Some of the people
I know here may have been selfish, but the vast majority of immigrants to
Canada from India that I know are helping their families back home. They
work in Canada at the much higher Canadian labour rates, and then send a
large amount of this money back to India. I often joke that my own
mother-in-law commutes to Canada (IE: she works here, but her heart and
her home is in India).
> > > BTW, there's something I wrote about the Internet and India that
> > > appeared in The Statesman, an English language newspaper from Calcutta,
> > > on 11 July, 2001. I'm sending that writeup as an attachment since it is
> > > no longer available on that newspaper's web archives.
> >
> > A quote:
> >
> > "This means creating content and software in Indian languages, something
> > that has to be done by us Indians alone. Would our internationally
> > acclaimed software experts come forward in this endeavour, even if the
> > remuneration is not up to international standards?"
> >
> > I do hope that this question can be dealt with in the context of the
> > Open Source/Free Software movement. If software and other knowledge
> > workers are paid in a services economy, rather than a product one, the
> > expectations will be different. Customers will be many more as the prices
> > will be lower, and the creators will get paid more as the "foreign markup"
> > will be considerably less (IE: workers paid in Indian rates by western
> > companies, but products being sold back to India at western rates).
>
> Yes, yes! This question can and should be dealt with within the context
> of the Open Source/Free Software movement. What you say about the
> services versus products is quite right. Except, not many Indians who
> can do this kind of thing are willing. They would rather go West and
> work for big bucks!
See above - I'm not so sure it is as easy to assume thing are done for
selfish reasons. I'm not assuming they are selfless reasons, just
suggesting we don't really know.
> > I would like to hear more, and to hear any analysis on the Peru bill.
> > I am not that connected with Indian IT outside of ilug-cal at the moment.
> > Is there good news that I could be passing on to government reps here? I
> > am hearing so much more about Peru these days than I hear about India.
>
> It takes a great deal of courage and vision to be able to introduce a
> Bill like that to a nation's Congress. I have learnt a lot from the
> reply of the Pruvian Congressman to Microsoft. I wish him success in
> seeing his Bill passed into Law. Beyond that, I don't have much to say
> about the Bill now.
>
> No, there isn't much that's happening in the Indian software scene to
> write about.
Are there forums for this type of thing? My main connection back to
India is through ilug-cal so I tend to ask questions here, but this may
not be the best place.
> You may be interested to know that the government of Kerala
> - a State down South, and the one with the highest literacy rate in
> India - have decided to adopt an Open Source/Free Software model for
> themselves. They invited Richard Stallman over to learn more from him
> about it. But this was a few months ago.
> >
> > (BTW: I wanted to post to ilug-cal, but since your email was just to me
> > personally I did not. If the quotes from you are OK to publish - could
> > you just forward this onward?)
> >
> The reasons I did not post to ilug-cal were i) that my original message
> was quite long, and members of the list as a rule do not like long
> postings; also, it was not really about Linux as such and ii) even
> though I was having problems receiving e-mail round the time of your
> original posting regarding the Peruvian Bill and so may have missed some
> of the discussion, but all the same I thought there wasn't as much
> interest shown by the LUG in the matter as I would have expected.
>
> If you wish to forward our little discussion to ilug-cal, I have no
> reservations.
>
> With all good wishes,
>
> - Manas Laha
>
--
---
Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/>
See http://weblog.flora.ca/ for announcements, activities, and opinions
http://www.flora.ca/osss2002/ "Open Source Solutions Showcase" (Past)
Next: GOSLINGS (Getting Open Source and Linux INto GovernmentS)
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