On Fri, 2002-09-20 at 07:08, Raja Guha wrote: > > Where, But Oh! where *did* you "check" - five minutes ago? > > Pray tell _where_ these fine sentiments are inscribed for all and sundry > to peruse. > > Also, pray tell where the procedures to add to, subtract from or > otherwise modify same. > > A search of the ilug-cal.org web site yielded - nothing. > Or do these qualify as "common law" matters - that which everybody > inherently knows from nature?
what can i say? i thought you knew what a figurative statement was. guess i was wrong. or are you being obtuse on purpose? of course there isn't a stone tablet set up somewhere with ilug-cal's aims engraved beautifully in book antiqua. and of course i can't prove what the aims are at present. but i meet these people, talk to them on the phone, sometimes visit them in their homes and workplaces, help one another with linux-related problems. and all of it because we've been brought together by a common interest. there is just this feeling you get when you have been in a society for some time that it's doing okay. call it vibes. that sounds too airy to you? well, tough luck. maybe you'll begin to see my point when you've been to a few meets. > > ***Isn't this the crux of the matter, that a list with the appearances > of an open public forum is not subject to any openly stated, publicly > available aims, regulations or proceedures - even several years after > its formation?*** well, what are you getting so worked up about? you think this society has room to improve? well, of course it does. nothing's perfect. you want to bring changes? well, if the members like your proposals they will stand by your side and help you bring them. you'll find me in that helping crowd, too, if i like what you say. the members of this list aren't unreasonable or unfair. i'm sure they're ready to hear you out. so please don't stand on your head or tear your hair out when someone contradicts you. what i wrote was sincerely written, and if you can't appreciate that, then you're seriously lacking in one main leadership quality necessary for bringing any change. > > If the aims of this forum had been explicit in the beginning - perhaps I > would never have started posting here in the first place - or else I > would have known the limits and expectations upfront. Heck! I even > check the ingredients list on a 50p toffee! so now the forum's aims have become explicit to you, what makes you continue? the unsubscribe link's there at the bottom of each mail, you know. > Isn't the lack of explicit aims also the reason that the list is little > more than a forum for trading, IMHO, endless, pointless ramblings about > arcana and other sundry esoterica amongst a few old friends who deeply > resent any up-start newbies? (e.g. last year when 3000 people died in > a flash the best that old boys on his list could achieve was long winded > inane discussions about how it would affect US encryption laws. US > encryption laws? not the 3000 dead or the 30,000 that soon followed, not > Indo/Pak repercussions. US encryption laws! - why should ilug-CAL care? > Perhaps it expects to affect US legislation? ) my oh my. boy how you hate this list. i wonder what makes you cling. anyway, it's difficult to answer your questions because of the way you desultorily jump from one topic to another. how the list's (perceived) indifference to 9/11 becomes an example of its resentment for newbies, clean evades me. and though that incident was very sad, still sadder things have happened elsewhere in the world before and after 9/11. somalia. gujarat. tienanmen square. you want us to write about those too? you want us to keep up with the news? well, we *are* a linux list after all, aren't we? life goes on in spite of disasters, and we have to draw a line somewhere. and the list doesn't resent newbies, though it may have sometimes given dressings-down to lazy or stubborn newbies. i myself was subjected to the treatment once upon a time. if that makes some people leave in a huff, why good riddance. > What? Oh! What has the list achieved since its inception? Pray > enumerate. What there is, on its defunct website (while TWO new websites > rot on the sidelines), is mighty, mighty little for a city as large and > purpotedly as intellectually gifted as Kolkata. > > And it is not through lack of funds - no one has bothered to seek in the > past! It may not even be through the lack of participation - look at > numbers who volunteered for the Fair (it was 10 confirmed, 5 maybes - > before this war broke out). This is the city of little theater groups > and little magazines - I cannot believe that there is no similar > interest in OSS, in the bastion, if I may call it that, of the > anti-capitalists. What has the list done to reach out and be known? I > was in Kolkata for a year and a half, working w/ 2 local devlopers on a > Linux project before I even heard of ilug-cal. > > The list has, after all, taken on a heavy mantle - that of representing > the entire city simply by registering for that name and creating an open > list on it no matter who did it. i've said this before and i'll say it again. i'm not against change. if i feel some change is for the better, i'll be there helping you. but you can't achieve anything with a hot head. cool down. survey the territory. respect people's opinions. impetuousness won't get you anywhere. > Tathagata Bannerjee stated that all but one founder member has left the > city - I have a thought - Perhaps, the wrong people founded the list! > Perhaps the list was their ticket to whereever they masnaged to run away > to. Perhaps they should have been founding ilug-Sidney or ilug-LA or > some such.(yes ilug-LA - they would be forming ilugs once they figured > out that ulug(yes I know its is just lug) meetings have no seats for > their brown bottoms - that too, is an unstated rule). > -- > > In the end Tathagata Bannerjee may be right - there may be too few in > this list who sympathize with the need for formalization - and that, for > those who realize it, is the principle chord of something much bigger > than our sad little list - the sad history of our country - our > do-nothing nation. please get out of your messiah complex. we are what we are, and you're part of it. if you don't like that idea, you know what to do. we aren't a bunch of sad folk trying a little linux because the doctor said it might be good for the liver, but enthusiastic people who do as much for linux as the city's socio-economic condition allows them. you'll see the famous ilugs like bangalore and chennai have many linux professionals on them. these people have been able to make their hobby and their occupation meet. calcutta doesn't have that kind of infrastructure, at least not yet. people programme in VB all day or read in schools or teach the humanities in a college and do linux in their spare time. i'm sure you're more aware of all this than i am, given your experience as you've revealed in your other mail. you can't change all that just by closing your eyes and wishing hard. of course dynamic people like you help to improve the situation a bit (and that was sincerely said, so please don't read any irony into it). but being dynamic doesn't mean you have to live on the end of a short fuse. > I am continuing my efforts to get us to the book fair; I am also > willing to step aside if my inclusion causes volunteers to drop out. whatever gives you that idea? don't confuse issues, please. of course everyone wants you to continue what you're doing for our inclusion in bfair/compass. > But - trying to create and apply OSS for what Tathagata Banerjee in his > ignorace calls "blah blah" is what I have been doing for the past few > years at ENORMOUS expense to me and my family (as, at least, a couple > luger knows :)), and what I still continue to do. > it's really remarkable how you confuse things. i didn't describe your career with those words. i was just referring to a part of one sentence you had written in that mail - a sentence which i said i couldn't understand. > Moreover, I shall do it through the agency of an open organization with > clearly stated aims, rules and processes. This stipulation *may* bar it > from being ilug-cal. what *may* bar ilug-cal from serving your purpose is that some members may not want to feel restricted to a narrow goal. but that's just me thinking. go ahead and do your thing. see if you can push it through. and if you can, i promise not to sulk just because it wouldn't be to my liking. - t. -- cogito, ergo es. -- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body "unsubscribe ilug-cal" and an empty subject line. FAQ: http://www.ilug-cal.org/help/faq_list.html
