On Tue, Sep 30 2008, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 September 2008 06:14:31 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that anyone is arguing that canonical, and
>> ubuntu, do not provide a useful product, nor that the product they
>> provide is popular.
>>
>> The point is whether they are good citizens in the free
>> software community, and part of _that_ ethos is feeding user feedback
>> (positive or negative), and code changes, back upstream.
>>
>> I can't say I am impressed by canonical's efforts in that
>> arena.
>
> I don't see a reason why every company needs to contribute in the same
> point of an OS stack.
There is nothing that requires it, no. But then, we are not
talking about requirements, we are talking about whether Ubuntu fits
into the free software ecosystem, instead of leeching off it.
> If the focus of Ubuntu is to build upon an existing OS stack and
> provide usability at the top most level - that is a compelling product
> strategy as well. Criticizing it for not contributing as well to the
> kernel is like saying LUGs don't serve a purpose because it's people
> don't send kernel patches.
Neither one of them fit well into the role of contributing to
the greater free software community. Which may be all right, sinc not
everyone can be free software contributors.
> Also remember, that this is the only commercial backed distribution
> which is completely free - you cannot compare it with Redhat,
> Novell/SuSe, Linspire, etc. because they all work with a different
> business model.
The intent is not to narrowly compare commercial free software;
the idea is to see if Ubuntu does indeed fit the model of a good free
software citizen.
> As far as being a good FOSS citizen, I have always believed that
> helping fixing bugs upstream is better than having distro specific
> patches. I must admit, I cannot say how well Ubuntu does in this
> regard, however I have seen many launchpad bugs referencing the fact
> that a bug has been filed upstream. Unless I see proper data (and not
It does not too a very good job, on. Which is why Greg's talk
was important; Debian developers have had a similar story, for years.
> merely opinions/hunches misrepresented as facts) as to whether the
> Ubuntu's community has not helped in fixing these bugs (and not merely
> reporting them - which isn't bad per se), I cannot accept that they
> haven't been of much help to the FOSS world.
They do not report bugs, and they do not pass their fixes
upstream -- which is worse. As a specific example, fixes to my
code ought to being fed back to me (ucf, kernel-package, etc) -- just
like I feed back changes to my upstream using _their_ preferred means
of communications.
The way things with changes are that if you make changes,
you pass them to the upstream developer, using their preferred means of
communication: that mean you use their mailing lists, their bug
tracking system, rebasing the changes to hteir release, and not mixing
in your own rebrancding changes or changes upstream made that you
cherry picked into one giant diff kept behind a locked door in the
basement with the words "Beware of the leopard" on the locked door.
> And as far as open sourcing of components like Launchpad is concerned
> - it is a branded service for goodness sake. Is it being distributed
> without source code?
Yes. Launchpad is not free.
> Isn't there a commitment from Canonical to open source it? Why don't
> you go ask other companies provide online services to the community to
> open source their server software? Quite a few of those come to mind!
All of the server software Debian uses to provide services
(including debbugs) are free software.
> I actually find this kind of intra-community bickering in the Linux
> community very disturbing. What is the problem with all you folks ?
It is just irksome to see Ubuntu claiming to be contributing
fixes upstream when that happens not to be the truth.
> this is a Free Linux distro which has improved visibility of Linux in
> the OS market. This distro is on your side of the Free software
> revolution. It hasn't compromised Free principles like what Linspire
> did, and yet faces more widespread criticism from the FOSS community.
> What is it that truly disturbs you?
That they lie about contributing back to Debian, hen they do not.
manoj
--
Tomorrow, you can be anywhere.
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <http://www.golden-gryphon.com/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
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