1.  The article I referenced explains WHY the original sender's email
address appears in the messages that everyone receives, and that there is no
way to "hide" it, at least not within the scope of an iMail setting.  See
item FOUR below for more.

2.  NO, I did *not* mean "not being able to NOT include it (the trailer
text)".  I meant exactly what I said -- if I create a trailer, the manual
says it will NOT appear at the bottom of messages that are delivered to
accounts ON the iMail server.   The trailer also does not appear in HTML
messages, for the obvious reasons I was already aware of (it would have to
be inserted before the ending HTML tags of an HTML message).  My frustration
lies in the fact that this so called "freebie" (which is promoted in the
sales materials for iMail) feature has so many restrictions... can't use
with HTML, can't expect it to show up at the bottom of messages delivered to
local accounts (which is what an IpSwitch manual  said -- I will test this
again to see for myself).

Bottom line, I need a way to include text at the bottom of ALL list
messages, regardless of format or location of the destination mail
accounts... That's what I am asking for.  If it means having the list server
strip HTML tags first, or if it means having the list server "know" how to
place my requested trailer at the bottom of an incoming HTML message, or if
it means I create TWO trailers -- one in plain text, the other in HTML...
with this mature a product, I don't think it's too much to ask in a current
or near-future release.  And if this is not something that the "majority" of
list servers support (I don't care about the majority, I care about the one
I purchased, which says it supports trailers), this appears to be an
opportunity for IpSwitch to offer something the others don't.  HTML/Rich
Text messages are a fact of life, and more to the point are implemented
features by MANY internet users, and server products should keep up with
that.

3. Being a good citizen has little to do with whether or not one sends an
email message in plain text or HTML.  Yes, I fully understand that HTML has
higher overhead, but you're burying your head in the sand if you think that
this sometimes useful way of transmitting well-formatted messages (how about
tables that some users wish to present in their messages, without having to
do an attachment?  An attachment typically has more overhead than an HTML
message that serves the same purpose.  How about automatically generated
HTML invoices?  etc. etc.) doesn't have it's place, even on a listserv.

You don't know my users, you don't know our particular use of the list, and
so it stands to reason that you shouldn't pass judgement on the "good
citizenship" of our users.  We don't even USE digest mode on the list in
question, and HTML messages are useful part of what we are doing -- plus,
it's user-friendly, and I don't have to train a bunch of users (and remind
them like a mother hen) on how to turn off HTML in their mail programs JUST
for our list.  Rejecting HTML messages is not an option, nor do we wish to.
Please -- don't beat the HTML vs. Text message drum around me... it's an
elitist, irrelevant argument; each format most certainly has its place
online, even on mailing lists.  I will try in the future to respect this
list's requests for plain-text messages.

4.  My claim that list member's email addresses are NOT private (in other
words, any list member can discover the email addresses of all other list
members on a MODERATED, "PRIVATE" list) is not an "allegation", it's a
tested frickin' fact.  I have a moderated list on my iMail server.  It is
marked "private" (it disallows subscriptions).  I can send a plain text
email to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with "list LISTNAME" in the body of the
message, and I'll get back a list of all that list's member's email
addresses -- JUST LIKE THE MANUAL SAYS --  even if I check the box on the
list's "SECURITY" tab (the name of the tab prompting me to believe I can
secure the list, including members addresses... silly me) labeled "Disable
List Command".  Sandy, I HAVE tested this -- the email addresses are
available to all list members who know how to issue that command via email,
even with the checkbox checked on a moderated, Private List (that checkbox
is also checked).  In addition, the article I mentioned also demonstrates
how list member email addresses can be discovered, just by reading the
messages to the list using certain email clients.  So, my claim stands --
there is no real way to secure or "hide" the email addresses of list
members.  What is so perplexing about wanting to keep list member's email
addresses private, especially when they can be delivered in BULK to anyone
who knows the LIST command?  Can you say SPAM??

I am fully willing to admit that I could be missing a setting or
misunderstanding existing settings... but please don't accuse me of not
testing my claims before asking for assistance.

Frankly, I consider the fact that the email addresses of all of a list's
members is available using the LIST command, even with the "Disable LIST
command" checkbox checked, somewhat of a security hole, if only to allow
malicious list members to discover and use the available email addresses for
SPAMMING purposes.  The additional availability of a list member's email
address through each post is a little less obvious, and does not occur with
all mail readers, but could still be used in a similar way, albeit with a
lot more harvesting work.

It would almost seem better if the "reply to list" feature, when enabled,
would remove the email address of the sender from the email before sending
it out to the list, replacing anything containing the sender's email address
in the header with the email address of the list.  This would disallow
members from replying to one another, and prevent them from discovering the
email addresses of other list members.

Perhaps you're right... I'm asking for some features in something that maybe
the majority of you consider to be a "freebie" feature.  But hell, this
"freebie" IS a listed, marketed feature in the iMail sales materials
(http://www.ipswitch.com/products/IMail_Server/listserver.html).  I think
that justifies my comments on above issues at least to some extent.  By the
way -- check the 6th bullet point of that features page...  "Disable" should
mean "Disable"!!

Thanks for listening to my rant.







> http://support.ipswitch.com/kb/IM-20000922-DM01.htm

What on earth did you find in there that's relevant to your questions?

> This  trailer  feature  for  the  iMail  list  server is practically
> useless  --  not  being  able  to  include  it  at the bottom of all
> messages  sent to local accounts makes NO sense at all

Did  you  mean "not being able to NOT include it"? I have to say, this
missing  advanced  feature  is  also missing from the majority of list
managers out there, so it makes its own kind of sense. Or did you mean
something  else, like the global trailer.txt feature (which isn't part
of  IMAILSRV)--this  is, I agree, a strange implementation, but not in
the same realm.

> and  if  users are using HTML formatting (99% of our users do!), the
> trailer  won't  appear.

As Rod said, good citizens use plain-text for lists, which generate an
explosive  (no  pun intended) amount of traffic and so must be treated
especially delicately. If you can't convince them by moderator message
alone,    convince    them    by    rejecting   messages   that   have
'multipart-alternative'  in  the headers, etc. IMAILSRV is part of the
MTA  part of IMail, which does not speak HTML. True, it would be great
if  it  did  do this kind of tag-stripping thing on its own, but it is
basically a "freebie" thrown in alongside more maintained modules.

> What  can  be  done to REALLY add a trailer, without all these silly
> problems?  This  should  have been fixed SO long ago... a trailer on
> list  messages  should  be  a  TRAILER under all circumstances. What
> gives?

To  do  this would require parsing the HTML to determine the insertion
point.  It  could  be  done using any good text-manipulation language,
even VBScript.

> is there ANY way to secure the email addresses of list members?

This  is  a  perplexing,  seemingly untested allegation you're making.
You're  not  correct  in  saying  that the LIST command is irrevocably
enabled,  although  the  docs  are misleading on this point, making it
seem like a loophole where there isn't one.

-Sandy


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