Wow, thanks for providing this nice product analysis, Eric! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Coffman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:45 PM Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] NEW SVC AGREEMENT PRICES - Please Read
> Here is a brief assessment of each so far: I will elaborate if there is > interest. > > Merak - It is quite proprietary. It has its own web server and runs a > custom compiled PHP binary. The interface is nice but editing it is a > nightmare. They have lots of branding on it and it is forbidden to > remove it according to the comments in the code. I spent all morning > trying to change the login box just a little bit and ended up with 15 > files opened that were included in the homepage. I eventually gave up. > It has the a nice data store format for messages. Each email is a > separate file in maildir format. Read files end in 02.tmp and unread > files end in 40.tmp (or something close to that) so it is easy to keep > track of things. Backup and restore would be very easy with this one. > Lots of info on the website and support seems to be readily available. > Has a nice PDA theme. > > Smartermail - Nice interface, uses asp.net code and is very clear what > is happening in the pages. There is no GUI admin tool, the whole thing > is web based. The mail storage is complex. Each user folder has a > mailbox file for each date. The messages appear to be close to maildir > format but the top of the file has some binary garbage. Tracking of > read/unread messages is done via a binary index file. if you delete it > or it gets corrupt all messages get marked read. They seem less > established with little info on the website, a low activity forum. > Doesn't have ODBC support for user list. > > Mdaemon - The web interface is ran via a DLL. Want to customize it? > Sorry, it is a compiled DLL. It tracks read/unread messages via a binary > index file although individual messages are individual maildir like > formatted text files. Has a nice PDA theme. The web interface seemed > confusing to me. > > MailEnable - Web interface is asp. API seems well documented, uses a > reliable IIS web server (no proprietary crap). Each page of the template > is simple asp and can be easily modified. The WYSIWYG editor works in > Mozilla and IE. The mail storage format is individual files in maildir > format. The tracking of read/unread messages is done via an XML index > file per folder. MMC integrated administration tool that is very easy to > use. The company is in Australia so forget phone support... > > My choice so far is MailEnable (Enterprise). I am testing it out now > pretty heavily. I expect to have custom templates done in a few days and > drop Imail completely across all my domains before the new year. > > Overall my requirements are: > - preferably asp (.net or php wil do) for easy customization > - proven web server (IIS or Apache) I hate proprietary stuff > - mail storage in maildir format with a text readable index or a simple > way to identify read/unread messages (no binary garbage) > - PDA interface or ability to easily make one (try that with Imail... > hahahah) > - Would like WYSIWYG html editor that works in both browsers > - Spell checker that actually works (try that with Imail... hahahah) > - Ability to do cleanup (dump messages older than X number of days, > etc) > - Decent support and proven record of actually fixing bugs > - Reasonable price (relative to Imail everything else looks very > cheap) > - ODBC connection for account list > - Spam control > - It would be nice to have an AV option but this can be done via a mail > gateway > > I personally do not need calendaring, instant messaging, integrated > media players, integration with groupwise, XM satellite integration, > etc. I just need a decent webmail server that works and that will easily > integrate with my portal. > > Eric > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/27/2004 11:31:29 PM >>> > Couldn't agree more. > > By the way. From the installations you have tested - Merak, > > SmarterMail, Mdaemon, MailEnable,...- what do you like the best so > far. > > -Luis Arango > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:IMail_Forum- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Coffman > > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:51 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] NEW SVC AGREEMENT PRICES - Please Read > > > > Hello, > > > > I have a few points to consider: > > > > 1. Why would you want to bundle Instant Messaging and Outlook > > integration as a forced option? It may be a decent deal if all of > the > > services were used but if all you want is a webmail server the > > additional cost is just a waste of money. As a company would it not > be > > better to get SOME money from smaller clients than NONE? > > > > 2. I have been using Imail since version 6. I have bought 3 > unlimited > > licenses and service agreements for 3 sites every year. In that time > I > > have called Ipswitch 5 times give or take one. So from that, I have > paid > > for 9 service agreements at $495 each for a total of $4455. That > amounts > > to about $900 a call for support. What I can tell you is that in > each > > case Ipswitch was very unresponsive to my needs. I honestly got the > > feeling that the support person simply wanted to get me off of the > > phone. I have submitted several enhancement requests for BUGS in the > > software. The support person confirmed the problem, noted my > problem, > > and told me I would be informed by email when it was fixed. In 3 > years I > > have not seen one bug I reported fixed, nor has support fixed my > issue > > in any case. One bug that I can still duplicate in seconds causes > the > > webmail server to consume 100% processor still exists today. At this > > point I consider the $495 per year per installation "upgrade > assurance" > > as the phone support has been largely useless. If you can't survive > on > > $900 a call you have serious problems. That said I suggest something > > along the lines of each year of support comes with 1 or 2 support > calls. > > Each additional call would be pay per incident. I could understand > that > > totally. > > > > 3. You really have to be reasonable. Imail is nowhere near the > quality > > or the capability of Exchange. That is a fact that you cannot refute > > under any circumstance. Lots of people buy Chevy Cavaliers too... It > is > > a decent car in that it runs and does what it is supposed to do, > like > > Imail in some respects. Now, most Cavalier owners would rather have > a > > BMW 330i. Problem is it is too costly. There is no doubt it is > better > > than the Cavalier but it is just too costly for the regular guy. Now > if > > the Cavalier suddenly became expensive, at say 70% to 80% of the BMW > it > > would no longer be a viable option as its cost/benefit would be very > > negative in comparison. Your product is in that situation. > > > > The problem that I face now is lack of trust in your company and > have > > spent the past 2 days installing your competitors software. Merak, > > SmarterMail, Mdaemon, MailEnable, etc are ALL more featured, have a > WAY > > better web interface, and cost WAY less. At this point I am > absolutely > > certain that I will be moving from Imail. If Ipswitch hadn't made > this > > choice I would have been a paying customer for years to come. If the > > other companies can survive on their costs while making continual > > improvements why is Ipswitch unable to do the same while making > > virtually no improvements? > > > > One of the great things about the web is that Google and the Wayback > > machine websites will cache this entire fiasco. Every decent > sysadmin > > that considers ICS or any Ipswitch product will search the web and > find > > this thread during their evaluation and likely reconsider or at > least > > add doubt. > > > > This is totally sickening. I feel for the poor programmers who will > > loose their jobs over this. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/27/2004 2:19:10 PM >>> > > Hi Bryan, > > > > > > > > The service agreement prices include the AV subscription renewals as > > well as > > service on the components in the ICS bundle (which in the case of > the > > ISP/EDU bundle is IMail, KWM and AV). There is one typo in the list > > concerning the renewal of the ICS ISP Edition - that number should > > read > > $3,995 instead of $4,995. > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is - > > > > > > > > 1) Since that $3,995 number includes subscription for > unlimited > > Symantec AV, would it be more palatable to have two tiers for the > ISP > > bundles - perhaps a 1,000 user level and an unlimited level? This > > would > > substantially drop the cost of the renewal (I can't give numbers, as > I > > don't > > have them - since at the moment this is hypothetical). > > > > 2) If we were to continue to offer a stand-alone Service > > Agreement for > > IMail, what would be a fair price for such an agreement? Please > bear > > in > > mind that the current $495 does not cover our Support costs, let > alone > > our > > Development costs. > > > > > > > > I am asking this forum these questions, not to start another flame, > but > > to > > get some feedback - I would appreciate everyone's use of correct > forum > > etiquette. It is difficult for me to post here in good faith while > > getting > > personally flamed. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jill > > > > _____ > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan E. > > Martin > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:39 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] Cross-grade concerns addressed (NEW SVC > > AGREEMENT > > PRICES) > > > > > > > > Jill, > > > > > > > > I received a PowerPoint presentation from Renee Breckenridge, my new > > account > > manager, which also gave the ICS Annual Renewal fees (new service > > agreement > > fees). They were as follows: > > > > > > > > STANDARD EDITION: > > > > 25 Users $375 > > > > 100 Users $995 > > > > 250 Users $1495 > > > > Unlimited Users $2995 > > > > > > > > PREMIUM EDITION: > > > > 25 Users $449 > > > > 100 Users $1295 > > > > 250 Users $2695 > > > > Unlimited Users $4995 > > > > > > > > ISP/EDU EDITION: > > > > Unlimited Users $4995 > > > > > > > > Should I decide to actually purchase ICS Standard Unlimited just to > > keep > > running IMail Server and receiving support and upgrades to a product > I > > have > > invested three years of my time and profit in, my annual renewal fee > > will > > increase from $495 to a minimum of $2995, over 600%. But just to > get > > there, > > I have to also jump the $4995 hurdle, which is over a 1000% increase > in > > the > > first year. > > > > > > > > All I have ever used is IMail Server. That's all I want, that's all > I > > need, > > but Ipswitch is no longer going to provide me with that option. > Jill, > > would > > Ipswitch rather have $0 from my company than $495? Is that truly > the > > better > > deal financially for the company? Please respond to this e-mail. > You > > have > > been very active in the form today. I would appreciate a > > straightforward > > response to my inquiry. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bryan E. Martin > > > > Ziggycom Online, Inc. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jill Jones > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:22 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [IMail Forum] Cross-grade concerns addressed > > > > > > > > Hi Doug, > > > > > > > > I hope that this post will address many of the concerns I have read > on > > the > > forum yesterday and today in regards to crossgrading from IMail to > > ICS. > > > > > > > > If you have a current Service Agreement for IMail or IIM, and are > not > > interested in crossgrading to ICS, you will receive service for the > > life of > > your SA. This means that when we release software updates, such as > > 8.14, > > 8.15, etc., you will get those updates just as you always have. You > > will > > also continue to receive phone support for the life of your > agreement. > > Ipswitch is not taking anything away in terms of service or support > for > > the > > current product. > > > > > > > > If you have a current Service Agreement for IMail or IM and are > > interested > > in crossgrading to ICS, then you will get a year of service, for all > > components in your ICS bundle, added to your existing SA. > > > > > > > > Here are some examples of how this works: > > > > If I own IMail and my SA expires in January 05 and I crossgrade to > ICS > > in > > November 04, then I have service on all ICS components until January > 06 > > - > > even the ones that I did not own previously. > > > > > > > > If I own IMail and my SA expires in January 05 and I have Symantec > > Scan > > Engine, which expires in March of 05 - but I choose to crossgrade to > > ICS in > > November of 04, then I have service on all ICS components until > March > > of 06. > > > > > > > > Also, bear in mind, that the crossgrade and renewal prices include > > subscription fees and are not just for service and support. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jill > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug > > Anderson > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:38 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before > > speaking to > > boss > > > > > > > > That SHOULD be when it comes time for SA renewal. My complaint > (maybe > > along > > with other corporate users) is > > > > we paid the SA. That SA should of been prorated to December 31 if > you > > have > > to buy before the 31. That 5995 actually is plus because our SA > hasn't > > run > > out. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Allen Taylor <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:54 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before > > speaking to > > boss > > > > > > > > Limited-time offer until December 31, 2004 > > Special offer for IMail Server and Ipswitch Instant Messaging > customers > > > > (You will be required to enter your valid serial number or service > > agreement > > number during your purchase. Offer valid for IMail server versions 7 > > and up > > and all versions of Ipswitch Instant Messaging.) > > > > > > 25 seats > > > > $695 > > <http://www.ipswitch.com/purchase/crossgradeoffer.asp?SPN=MS-6101> > > Order > > > > 100 seats > > > > $1,495 > > <http://www.ipswitch.com/purchase/crossgradeoffer.asp?SPN=MS-6111> > > Order > > > > <http://www.ipswitch.com/Purchase/SASOffer.asp?SPN=ME-3000> 250 > seats > > > > > > $2,995 > > <http://www.ipswitch.com/purchase/crossgradeoffer.asp?SPN=MS-6211> > > Order > > > > Unlimited seats > > > > $5,995 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jill Jones > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:11 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before > > speaking to > > boss > > > > > > > > Hi Sharyn, > > > > > > > > What Edition are you interested in, Standard, Premium or ISP? > > > > > > > > The renewal costs for each of those unlimited editions are $2,295, > > $4,995 > > and $2,295, respectively. > > > > > > > > Jill > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sharyn > > Schmidt > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:19 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before > speaking > > to > > boss > > > > > > > > Suppose I want to fork over the cost of the special price for > current > > service agreement holders, which looks like $5,995.00 for unlimited > > seating.. > > > > I get a year's service agreement with the upgrade software. > > > > Next year, I want to renew the agreement. > > > > Will the new service agreement also cost me another $5,995.00???? > > > > Sharyn > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/mailing-lists.html > > List Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/imail_forum%40list.ipswitch.com/ > > Knowledge Base/FAQ: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/IMail/ > > ______ > > [Email scanned for viruses by Panda Consulting -www.pandacons.com-] > > [Email escaneado contra virus por Panda Consulting > -www.pandacons.com-] > > > ______ > [Email scanned for viruses by Panda Consulting -www.pandacons.com-] > [Email escaneado contra virus por Panda Consulting > -www.pandacons.com-] > > > To Unsubscribe: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/mailing-lists.html > List Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/imail_forum%40list.ipswitch.com/ > Knowledge Base/FAQ: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/IMail/ > > To Unsubscribe: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/mailing-lists.html > List Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/imail_forum%40list.ipswitch.com/ > Knowledge Base/FAQ: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/IMail/ > To Unsubscribe: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/mailing-lists.html List Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/imail_forum%40list.ipswitch.com/ Knowledge Base/FAQ: http://www.ipswitch.com/support/IMail/
