Thanks, Chadwell ji On 14 Nov 2016 5:59 am, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> It is entirely possible that a cultivated variety of Pyracantha has been > introduced into India (the British > introduced various 'cottage garden' plants just as the Moghuls seem to > have introduced quite a lot of plants into > Kashmir, centuries ago) whether during the British days or post > Independence and this could have naturalised > near to habitation - as has occasionally been the case in the UK. But if > that had happened in the Shimla area > during the British days it is likely that Collet would have known about it. > > Given how spiny the plant is, it can make a good barrier, so its growth > may be encouraged near habitation. Hippophae > rhamnoides (as members of this group will know, its berries produce 'Leh > Juice') subsp. turkestanica is common in 'wild' > locations in the drier, inner valleys on islands in rivers and in mixed > thickets by streams and rivers; it is also common in > Ladakh about villages and much used for fencing. > > Perhaps a member of this group is aware of such an introduction into > cultivation (Floriculture or Forestry Departments perhaps) post > Independence but it would then need to have been grown in gardens before it > was naturalised? Part of the problem is that it is not straightforward to > tell the ancestry of cultivated plants or if, other than colour of fruits, > how to distinguish between any of these and wild Pyracantha crenulata. > > Stewart was a keen and active field botanist. He did not come > across P.crenulata in the wild in N.Pakistan or Kashmir, > so the wild P.crenulata may not be widespread or common in Himachal > Pradesh. > > I have just checked 'Flora of Kathmandu Valley' where it is recorded (with > red fruits) in dry places between 1350-1800m. > 'Flowers of the Himalaya' says the wood is used for walking sticks (though > not specifically where) which suggests it must be > common in some places and if a plant has a use, growing it (with the bonus > of its use as a fence) near to habitation would make > sense or certainly encouraging it to grow at the very least. > > Presumably you are not in a position to judge if the Pyracantha you have > observed near habitation is different to typical > wild P.crenulata? This could only be discovered by close examination and > record keeping. > > Anyhow, I am pleased to hear that you travel extensively in North > Temperate Forests (by this, you presumably mean in H.P.?). > It is great to have people observing and being able to recognise plants in > the wild, which needs encouraging. > > Just consulted Osmaston's 'Forest Flora for Kumaon'. He, like, Collet, > knew the plant as Crataegus crenulata. He found it in the hills > from 2-7,000'. Common on waste land also in Chir & Banj forest especially > on banks of streams, in such localities it was somewhat gregarious, > sometimes forming dense thickets. Interesting that 'Flora of Bhutan' > mentions streamsides as its main habitat. Presumably, assuming it remains > as abundant in what was Kumaon nowadays, one would imagine it was never as > common in H.P. > > Apparently Pyracantha crenulata was growing at the Godawari Botanic Garden > near Kathmandu some decades ago (do not know if it still is) in some > quantity. The form there had small orange-red berries which in ornamental > terms did not compare with the popular Firethorn cultivars grown in the > UK. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *To:* efloraofindia <[email protected]> > *Cc:* Anil Thakur <[email protected]>; chrischadwell261@btinternet. > com > *Sent:* Sunday, 13 November 2016, 7:44 > *Subject:* Fwd: [efloraofindia:256538] Re: Pyracantha AT OCT2016/04 > > Thanks, Vaneet ji. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *Vaneet Jishtu* > Date: 13 November 2016 at 13:12 > Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:256538] Re: Pyracantha AT OCT2016/04 > To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]> > > > sorry i may be wrong...however i travel extensively in the north temperate > forests and this species is confined mainly near habitations (Shimla town, > Kufri, Mashobra, Dalhousie, Narkanda, etc) and i have not come across any > in the wild. > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 9:16 AM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji. > > On 13 November 2016 at 08:51, [email protected] m > <[email protected]> <[email protected] om > <[email protected]>> wrote: > > Sorry, the information about P.crenulata being brought in by the British > and naturalising is not correct. Pyracantha crenulata is a wild species > *native > to the Himalaya* from Kashmir to SW China and Myanamar @ 1000-2400m in > shrubberies, open slopes & cultivated areas. Its fruits are typically > orange-red though dark red forms occur. > > It was not introduced by the British or became naturalised. There may > have been isolated introductions of cultivars of Pyracantha during the > British time or indeed since which might explain the specimen photographed > at Narkanda, IF it is an escape from cultivation or is being cultivated? I > do not know much about the ancestry of the various Pyracantha cultivars, > whether selections or hybrids. Pyracantha 'Orange Glow' apparently arose > as a chance seedling found in a garden in Holland around 1930. So it does > not seem feasible that it could have got into wider cultivation and thus > have been brought to India before Independence, IF this is thought to be > this? Pyracantha crenulata is not often cultivated in the UK. > > Collet in 'Flora Simlensis' did record this plant but he knew it as > Crataegus crenulata which he stated was found from the Sutlej to Bhutan but > failed to indicate > where it grew in or around Simla (as he normally did for most plants). As > it is rather a prominent shrub, then not easily missed. He said the > species was closely allied to one which was often trained against walls in > Britain with bright red fruits. There is no native Pyracantha in the UK. > The commonest species which naturalises there is P.coccinea a native of NE > Spain to N.Iran. There seem to be about 7 species, 4 from China. Some > think P.crenulata and P.coccinea may constitute the same species. > > In Bhutan P.crenulata grows at streamsides, the fruits red. > > I am not familiar with all the various cultivars and cannot distinguish > readily between the species, so am uncertain what the plant photographed > actually is. > > Stewart understood P.crenulata to be cultivated in Abbottabad and Rao > recorded it from one place in Kashmir (hence, I suspect the distribution > given). He felt that IF that was a wild specimen, it would represent a > Westerly extension of its range. > > On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 4:46:39 PM UTC+1, Anil Thakur wrote: > > Pyracantha 'Orange Glow' > or > Pyracantha 'Orange Charmer' > or > Pyracantha crenulata 'Orange Glow' > or > Pyracantha angustifolia (native to Southwest China) > > Height: 3-4 feet > October 23, 2016 > Place: Narkanda, Shimla, India > Altitude: 8700- 8800 feet > > -- > With best Regards, > > Dr. Anil Kumar Thakur > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
