Dear Dr Singh
I have not seen a copy of the description of Geranium clarkei nor have a copy
of his book on Hardy Geraniums
(the reason he had 'Hardy' in the title is that because in the UK gardeners
often include non-hardy
Pelargoniums, which interestingly often appear in window boxes in front of
Swiss chalets but presumably,
as in my country are brought inside to over-winter in a frost-free place, as
well as true Geraniums).
There is a Hardy Geranium Group of the UK Hardy Plant Society - I have lectured
at their AGM on two occasions
about Himalayan geraniums.
Would be most useful if anyone who has a copy (or access to one) of Yeo's
description of Geranium clarkei could sent
me a copy. This seems to have been published in 'Hardy Geraniums' (1985).
Meanwhile, see: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000729513
which is the Holotype collected by Clarke in Kashmir at 'Harpoor' 2400m. I note
Yeo had previously determined this as Geranium pratense 'Kashmir Form' -was
this the same as Geranium pratense susbp. stewartianum?
And what you understood to be Geranium pratense in Kashmir?
I note that the 'Assessment of Geranium Diversity...' you sent a link to
includes G.clarkei but provides no synoyms. It includesGeranium himalayaense
with G.pratense sensu FBI as a synonym but not G,pratense.
I have some images of what is now known in cultivation as G.clarkei 'Kashmir
White' which I can find and post plus a form of G,pratensegrowing wild in the
UK, which I shall also post for comparison purposes.
Also took images of what I understand to be G.himalayense, growing in the
garden here, still in flower (just) which I photographed at the same time as
the images I posted yesterday of Geranium wallichianum. In the latter case, I
can post a dozen or so images, showing the range of characteristics, which will
be helpful.
In the mean-time, I draw your attention to cultivated forms of G.clarkei
'Kashmir white' (bearing in mind that not all images on the internet of this
cultivar, other cultivated varieties belonging to all genera and species of all
genera are correctly identified, indeed many are not and geraniums are prone to
hybridise, which complicates matters further and this happens not just
accidentally due to bees but actively due to gardeners deliberately crossing
them):
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=4e_uKDlz4p_VKM%3A
;https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=RmOIRJDoz76QcM%3A
;https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=7A2LE_887M917M%3A
these look OK to me.
And there is G.clarkei 'Kashmir Purple' see:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=RG65D9_9X7h8JM%3A
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>
To: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
Cc: C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:49
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257121] Re: Geranium pratense from Kashmir
Dear Dr Chadwell. I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let me
know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:34 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Chadwell ji
On 19 Nov 2016 7:20 pm, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com"
<chrischadwell261@btinternet. com> wrote:
I currently cannotput a firm name on this - shall comment further in due
course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayens
ealliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be
G.himalayense from Ladakh. I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in
the UK earlier this year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison
purposes - accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum. Let me try
to explain. In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he drawsattention to the
problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e alliance. He considered this was
particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with highquality pressed specimens
needed (nowadays these can be supplemented andsometimes replaced by high
quality digital images (provided the advice givenbelow is followed). This
alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimeswhite) in which the stamen-tip and
stigmas are never blackish-purple...
I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make
anadditional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph. Having
images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identificationand
enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps youcan
help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!
PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: IF only the firstone or two flowers have come out
don't bother to collect as the form ofinflorescence will not be evident.
The rootstock is important; get enough to showwhether compact or creeping, or
annual. You can photograph the base ofthe plant which should provide this
information. Clearly, one requirespermission from the authorities to uproot a
plant. There is still a need and indeed role for the collection ofpressed
specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain ofstaff of
botanic gardens/ institutions.
In the early stages of flowering look out forthe best-developed unripe fruits
available.
If fruit is ripe try to include both dehiscedand undehisced states.
If the fruits are falling with the seedsinside them, collect some (many
geraniums disperse their seed explosively butsome seed is often retained).
Include some loose petals whenpressing (detach if necessary). Expose stamens
to show filament shape andhairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which
petals have recently dropped.
Smoothing out one or two leaves andflowers as you close the press may be
helpful; a few separately pressed basaland lower/middle stem leaves are often
useful.
Wilted specimens can be verymisleading.
Notes should be taken as to flowerposture, colour and patterning of petals,
colour of stigmas, anthers and distalparts of filaments (not necessary if your
photos show these).
And don't forget to ensure thestipules are clearly shown - something that would
have been obviously inpressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 12:11:55 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote:
Geranium pratense L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753.
A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily
differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply
divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader
towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the lowest
pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense but latter
has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in upper with 5-7
lobes, mostly lobed again.Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp.
stewartianum, but this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the
species.Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir.
--
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://www.gurcharanfamily.com /
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/
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