Thanks, Chadwell ji On 22 Nov 2016 6:56 pm, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear Dr Singh > > I have slept some and surfaced sufficiently to start thinking more clearly > again. I have not > seen a copy of the description of Geranium clarkei nor have a copy of his > book on Hardy Geraniums > (the reason he had 'Hardy' in the title is that because in the UK > gardeners often include non-hardy > Pelargoniums, which interestingly often appear in window boxes in front of > Swiss chalets but presumably, > as in my country are brought inside to over-winter in a frost-free place, > as well as true Geraniums). > > There is a Hardy Geranium Group of the UK Hardy Plant Society - I have > lectured at their AGM on two occasions > about Himalayan geraniums. > > Would be most useful if anyone who has a copy (or access to one) of Yeo's > description of Geranium clarkei could sent > me a copy. This seems to have been published in 'Hardy Geraniums' (1985). > > Meanwhile, see: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode= > K000729513 which is the Holotype collected > by Clarke in Kashmir at 'Harpoor' 2400m. I note Yeo had previously > determined this as Geranium pratense 'Kashmir Form' - > was this the same as Geranium pratense susbp. stewartianum? > > And what you have been calling Geranium pratense in Kashmir? > > I note that the 'Assessment of Geranium Diversity...' you sent a link to > includes G.clarkei but provides no synoyms. It includes > Geranium himalayaense with G.pratense sensu FBI as a synonym but not > G,pratense. > > I have some images of what is *now* known in cultivation as G.clarkei > 'Kashmir White' which I can find and post plus a form of G,pratense > growing wild in the UK, which I shall also post for comparison purposes. > > Also took images of what I understand to be G.himalayense, growing in the > garden here, still in flower (just) which I photographed at the same time > as the images I posted yesterday of Geranium wallichianum. In the latter > case, I can post a dozen or so images, showing the range of > characteristics, which will be helpful. > > In the mean-time, I draw your attention to cultivated forms of G.clarkei > 'Kashmir white' (bearing in mind that not all images on the internet of > this cultivar, other cultivated varieties belonging to all genera and > species of all genera are correctly identified, indeed *many* are not and > geraniums are prone to hybridise, which complicates matters further and > this happens not just accidentally due to bees but actively due to > gardeners deliberately crossing them): https://www.google.co.uk/ > search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd= > ssl&imgrc=4e_uKDlz4p_VKM%3A ; > https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei% > 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=RmOIRJDoz76QcM%3A ; > https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei% > 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=7A2LE_887M917M%3A > > these look OK to me. > > And there is G.clarkei 'Kashmir Purple' see: https://www.google.co.uk/ > search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd= > ssl&imgrc=RG65D9_9X7h8JM%3A > > > > > > There is also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> > *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *Cc:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:49 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:257121] Re: Geranium pratense from Kashmir > > Dear Dr Chadwell. I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let > me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding. > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:34 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji > > On 19 Nov 2016 7:20 pm, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>" <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>> wrote: > > *I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due > course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e* > *alliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be > G.himalayense from Ladakh.* > > I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this > year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes - > accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum. > > Let me try to explain. In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention > to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e alliance. He > considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high > quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and > sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice > given below is followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers > (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never > blackish-purple... > > > I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an > additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph. Having > images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and > enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you > can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science! > > > PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: > > *IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to > collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.* > > *The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or > creeping, or annual. You can photograph the base of the plant which should > provide this information. Clearly, one requires permission from the > authorities to uproot a plant. There is still a need and indeed role for > the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is > primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.* > > * In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe > fruits available.* > > * If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.* > > * If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many > geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).* > > *Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary). Expose > stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a > flower from which petals have recently dropped.* > > *Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be > helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are > often useful.* > > *Wilted specimens can be very misleading.* > > *Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of > petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not > necessary if your photos show these).* > > *And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something > that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above > by Yeo.* > > > On Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 12:11:55 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote: > > *Geranium pratense* L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753. > > A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily > differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply > divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader > towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the > lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense > but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in > upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again. > Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp. stewartianum, but > this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the species. > Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir. > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com / <http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/> > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/ <http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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