I have been able to procure Image of holotype as well as original
publication of G. kashmirianum. An interesting observation in publication
sent in Dec. 1984, authors had thanked Prof. Yeo for going through the
specimens and seems gave go ahead as new species, before he published his
own G. clarkei in 1985.
I have ordered Hardy Geraniums by Dr. Yeo. It will reach me in a week,
enabling me to comment conclusively. In the meantime if we have only one
Geranium from G. pratense complex (leaving aside G. himalayanum) in
Kashmir, what was need for new names, why not upgrade G. pratense subsp.
stewartianum (already published) to species level. Perhaps I will have
answer from Yeo's Book.
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 5:27 AM, C CHADWELL <[email protected]
> wrote:
> Dear Dr Singh
>
> I have not seen a copy of the description of Geranium clarkei nor have a
> copy of his book on Hardy Geraniums
> (the reason he had 'Hardy' in the title is that because in the UK
> gardeners often include non-hardy
> Pelargoniums, which interestingly often appear in window boxes in front of
> Swiss chalets but presumably,
> as in my country are brought inside to over-winter in a frost-free place,
> as well as true Geraniums).
>
> There is a Hardy Geranium Group of the UK Hardy Plant Society - I have
> lectured at their AGM on two occasions
> about Himalayan geraniums.
>
> Would be most useful if anyone who has a copy (or access to one) of Yeo's
> description of Geranium clarkei could sent
> me a copy. This seems to have been published in 'Hardy Geraniums' (1985).
>
> Meanwhile, see: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=
> K000729513 which is the Holotype collected
> by Clarke in Kashmir at 'Harpoor' 2400m.* I note Yeo had previously
> determined this as Geranium pratense 'Kashmir Form' -*
> *was this the same as Geranium pratense susbp. stewartianum?*
>
> *And what you understood to be Geranium pratense in Kashmir?*
>
> I note that the 'Assessment of Geranium Diversity...' you sent a link to
> includes G.clarkei but provides no synoyms. It includes
> Geranium himalayaense with G.pratense sensu FBI as a synonym but not
> G,pratense.
>
> I have some images of what is *now* known in cultivation as G.clarkei
> 'Kashmir White' which I can find and post plus a form of G,pratense
> growing wild in the UK, which I shall also post for comparison purposes.
>
> Also took images of what I understand to be G.himalayense, growing in the
> garden here, still in flower (just) which I photographed at the same time
> as the images I posted yesterday of Geranium wallichianum. In the latter
> case, I can post a dozen or so images, showing the range of
> characteristics, which will be helpful.
>
> In the mean-time, I draw your attention to cultivated forms of G.clarkei
> 'Kashmir white' (bearing in mind that not all images on the internet of
> this cultivar, other cultivated varieties belonging to all genera and
> species of all genera are correctly identified, indeed *many* are not and
> geraniums are prone to hybridise, which complicates matters further and
> this happens not just accidentally due to bees but actively due to
> gardeners deliberately crossing them): https://www.google.co.uk/
> search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=
> ssl&imgrc=4e_uKDlz4p_VKM%3A ;
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%
> 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=RmOIRJDoz76QcM%3A ;
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%
> 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=7A2LE_887M917M%3A
>
> these look OK to me.
>
> And there is G.clarkei 'Kashmir Purple' see: https://www.google.co.uk/
> search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=
> ssl&imgrc=RG65D9_9X7h8JM%3A
>
>
>
> Best Wishes,
>
>
> Chris Chadwell
>
>
> 81 Parlaunt Road
> SLOUGH
> SL3 8BE
> UK
>
> www.shpa.org.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>
> *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
> *Cc:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia <
> [email protected]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:49
> *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:257416] Re: Geranium pratense from Kashmir
>
> Dear Dr Chadwell. I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let
> me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.
>
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> Phone: 011-25518297 <011%202551%208297> Mob: 9810359089 <098103%2059089>
> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:34 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Chadwell ji
>
> On 19 Nov 2016 7:20 pm, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com
> <[email protected]>" <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com
> <[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> *I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due
> course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e*
> *alliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be
> G.himalayense from Ladakh.*
>
> I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this
> year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes -
> accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum.
>
> Let me try to explain. In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention
> to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e alliance. He
> considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high
> quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and
> sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice
> given below is followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers
> (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never
> blackish-purple...
>
>
> I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an
> additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph. Having
> images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and
> enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you
> can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!
>
>
> PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS:
>
> *IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to
> collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.*
>
> *The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or
> creeping, or annual. You can photograph the base of the plant which should
> provide this information. Clearly, one requires permission from the
> authorities to uproot a plant. There is still a need and indeed role for
> the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is
> primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.*
>
> * In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe
> fruits available.*
>
> * If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.*
>
> * If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many
> geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).*
>
> *Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary). Expose
> stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a
> flower from which petals have recently dropped.*
>
> *Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be
> helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are
> often useful.*
>
> *Wilted specimens can be very misleading.*
>
> *Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of
> petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not
> necessary if your photos show these).*
>
> *And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something
> that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above
> by Yeo.*
>
>
> On Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 12:11:55 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote:
>
> *Geranium pratense* L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753.
>
> A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily
> differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply
> divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader
> towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the
> lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense
> but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in
> upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again.
> Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp. stewartianum, but
> this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the species.
> Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir.
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com / <http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/>
> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/ <http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/>
>
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