yeah they are a bit of a whipping boy. I guess from an outsider
perspective they can appear as arrogant - so there is an aspect of
schadenfreude to watching them suffer (I know I am guitly of it) but
really they are a great company that does and did great things, that
have incredible people working for them.

I really hope something good happens, despite what I may think at
times, and what the blogosphere says.

On Nov 21, 3:28 pm, sherod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The trouble I see in the blogosphere is there is a serious lack of
> friends out there for Sun, the open source types haven't bought the
> vision and are still treating Sun like its one of the other evil major
> vendors and the commercially aligned folk are tied to their old
> mindset's of paying big bucks for 'big things'.
>
> I've said before I think Sun has a compelling stack from the top to
> the bottom, its open, free (in many cases) and (I assume) functionally
> well rounded.   I think they have a vision of the future, I would
> claim I believe in it and they seem, despite the naysayers,  to be
> trying to execute it.
>
> That all said, the words of Jefferson Davis come to me:  (to
> paraphrase):
>
> "If (Sun Microsystems) falls, there should be written on its
> tombstone: DIED OF A THEORY."
>
> On Nov 21, 8:27 am, "Peter Becker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I personally think that:
> > - Karsten is right in that shrink-wrapped has the best margins and
> > still is a big market to make money in
> > - this market is dying fast, thus not the future as you claim (Karsten
> > didn't say that)
> > - you are right that Sun is ahead of the curve and suffering the
> > problems of being an early adopter
>
> > There was a talk in Stanford's Entrepreneurial Thought Leaders Seminar
> > Series (had to copy and paste that one) which had a bit on how being
> > too early can kill a project and even a whole startup, unfortunately I
> > don't remember the episode that was in. But I think the idea is right:
> > to get a product to market the market has to be ready, if you are too
> > early your product will fail even if it is good.
>
> > Chances aren't too bad that Sun isn't that far ahead that it would
> > kill a company of its size. But I must say that I am a bit more
> > concerened about the prominent people leaving Sun -- if they can't
> > keep the technical innovators life will be hard for them.
>
> >   Peter
>
> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:16 AM, andrew.bruce.law
>
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > Disclosure: I used to work for Sun and despite myself (like Joe I
> > > think) I still don't want to see them die.
>
> > > @Karsten.  I follow your reasoning if the future is shrink wrapped
> > > software and you're right, Sun don't follow this.
>
> > > However, check out Simon Phipps on FLOSS Weekly 39 [1] to see what Sun
> > > *do* think it is.  I honestly think things are changing in the
> > > marketplace.  Just look at the rise of cloud computing, IBM trying to
> > > change the way it works with Jazz (which I know went down badly among
> > > that audience but try it out and more importantly look at how they're
> > > running the development) and MSFT slowly getting more and more OSS
> > > friendly.  Sun might be ahead of the curve too much and die before
> > > this all comes to fruition (think "the network is the computer") but
> > > even if this happens I think history might be kinder on them than Wall
> > > Street is now...
>
> > > Or perhaps I'm dreaming.  ;-)
>
> > > Regs, Andrew
>
> > > [1]http://twit.tv/floss39
>
> > > On Nov 15, 11:41 pm, Joe Data <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> On Nov 15, 2:01 pm, Patrick Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > >> > Java, broken out in terms of revenue, has brought in around $220 
> > >> > million per
> > >> > year for the last couple of years (no details before that). Not
> > >> > knowing the costs involved, and just guessing, it seems like a pretty
> > >> > tidy sum of money, which should more than cover the costs involved. I
> > >> > think it must also be pretty clear to Sun that ignoring or "letting
> > >> > Java die" in some way would be killing one of the golden geese at the
> > >> > company, if nothing else in terms of branding. I can't imagine it,
> > >> > anyhow.
>
> > >> It's a general assumption that Sun doesn't make money from Java, other
> > >> companies do (like IBM or Oracle), and the numbers support this.  Sun
> > >> has an operating system, a database, Java, and middleware and made
> > >> $124mln the last quarter from all its software group.  IBM has
> > >> operating systems, a database, system management software, and
> > >> middleware and makes 5.2 bln last quarter (42 times as 
> > >> much,http://www.ibm.com/investor/3q08/presentation/3q08.pdf, slide 8) 
> > >> with
> > >> a gross margin of 84.7% (that's pretty nearly a Microsoft Windows or
> > >> Office margin). Nothing in the IT industry is as profitable as selling
> > >> "shrink-wrapped software", a business that Sun got out by giving its
> > >> software away.
>
> > >> Karsten
>
> > --
> > What happened to Schroedinger's cat? My invisible saddled white dragon ate 
> > it.
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