Unless it's Apple :) have you noticed on the Apple JDK,
"Apple".equals("Steve Jobs") returns trueOn Apr 10, 5:56 am, Alexey <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm not sure I understand the difference between morals and ethics in > business. To me, whatever fine differences between them, they're both > irrelevant without a context. Ethical to whom? If one party tricks > another party out of some advantage in a legal fashion, someone may > call it playing close to the line and someone else may call it > unethical, immoral, evil, etc. What's the difference? At the end of > the day, one party got something from another, possibly against their > will, and there is no immediate recourse. That's pure free market for > you. It's not always about friendly companies trying to one-up each > other to please Joe-the-customer. Sometimes doing unethical, or > indeed illegal, acts is worth it, as you mention yourself, and so they > do. But that's the beauty of corporations -- they are much more > predictable than individuals. That's what makes them not people and > ascribing emotionally charged values to them or their actions is > pointless to the discussion. > > Yes, a company may adopt an overall strategy to attack another > company, grab market share, defraud customers, or make an acquisition > in a way that we could describe as being against a certain system of > values. And we can say that this strategy gives said company a > certain reputation. What I argue though is that if the situation > changes, that company might turn that strategy 180 degrees should it > appear favorable to them. So it's a little different from a person, > who's known to be a cheat -- it's all about circumstances that company > finds itself in (those circumstances may include the make-up of its > shareholders or board of directors, but it's still not the same as > attributing an adjective to the company itself and all it > encompasses). > > On Apr 9, 3:40 pm, carl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Don't confuse morals with ethics. (or ethics with legality) In the > > end, companies are run by people and companies interact with people. > > The morality of the people at the company isn't at question, but the > > interactions between the company and people and other companies can be > > judged as ethical or not. That's not anthropomorphizing. If you hear > > me saying "Microsoft is Evil" what I mean is that "Microsoft > > frequently practices in unethical interactions with people". (So I > > guess I am taking a little poetic license with "Evil".) > > > It is the imperative of companies, at least public corporations, to > > make money for the owners (shareholders). This will often be at the > > expense of other, competing, companies. No problem. But there are > > areas that a company can go which is close to illegal but not quite > > close enough to get caught. Abusing market leadership in monopolistic > > was is one. And, maybe they do get caught, and often, but the > > penalties are too little and too late. I think of this aggressive and > > sometimes illegal activity as unethical, regardless of the morality of > > anyone involved. > > > I believe this was the case with Microsoft and the antitrust actions > > against them in the past. Apple, on the other hand, hasn't gotten > > there yet, but could be going in that direction. > > > On Apr 9, 11:10 am, Alexey Zinger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Corporations are not people. They are neither good nor evil. Let's not > > > anthropomorphize them. They make money, or at least try to. That's it. > > > Microsoft made a bunch of money, as did Apple. They've both made moves > > > some people were irked by and they continue to do that. They both try to > > > control as much of their market segment as they can. If you're on the > > > receiving end of the money, life is good. If you're feeling stepped on > > > as a consumer or a developer, not so much. Either way, they are > > > corporations with no more moral character than a tidal wave. > > > > Alexey > > > 2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS) > > > 2002 Suzuki Bandit 1200S > > > 1992 Kawasaki > > > EX500http://azinger.blogspot.comhttp://bsheet.sourceforge.nethttp://wcolla... > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: carl <[email protected]> > > > To: The Java Posse <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:42:36 PM > > > Subject: [The Java Posse] Re: Posse anti-Microsoft bias can lead to > > > whitewashing of other companies' record > > > > I'm still in the camp with Tor. > > > > I think historically Microsoft has built its business on questionable > > > ethics, going back almost 30 years. Selling mediocre products in > > > monopoly-controlled markets. Forcing OEMs to bundle Windows. etc. > > > Maybe they are getting better, but they now have the burden to prove > > > that they can "play nice". At least to me I am once or more bitten. > > > > Apple on the other hand has mostly tried to compete by making > > > innovative products with excellent user experience. They gained large > > > market share with the iPod and iPhone with good products, not with > > > shady deals. But I do agree now that they are on a slippery slope with > > > some of their aggressive lock-in tactics. I'll keep using their > > > products as long as they make my life easier. But, who knows, I may > > > end up with an Android phone next, and use it along side my MacBook > > > Pro and iPad :) > > > > On Apr 9, 5:07 am, zeevb <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 9, 1:44 am, Tor Norbye <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I know that Apple is very unpopular right now for having a closed > > > > > garden, and I think we all wish things were more open. But that's not > > > > > the same as the things we've seen from Microsoft in the past > > > > > You may be right but it seems that Apple is heading in that direction > > > > and their "closed garden" is full of thorns. > > > > The first one, which I think the Posse mentioned in the past > > > > (regarding the iPhone) is the banning of Java from the iPhone OS. I > > > > recall that in the early days of the iPhone you had some hopes > > > > (especially Dick) that Java support will arrive - but it didn't. Then > > > > you mentioned that it may arrive by cross compilation but now with the > > > > release of the iPhone OS 4 SDK Apple is banning any cross compilation > > > > so there will be no Java (or any other language besides Objective-C, C > > > > and C++). I expected that the JAVA Posse will show a bit more > > > > criticism for a company banning the use of the Java language on its > > > > platform. > > > > > Second - the app store approval process - Dick mentioned the ban of > > > > Google Voice which was clearly done for non-technical reasons. As I > > > > mantioned before in this group, Paul Graham has a well written blog > > > > post on this -http://www.paulgraham.com/apple.html > > > > > Third - it seems that their HTC patent suite is part of FUD tactics > > > > against Android. Wil Shipley, in an open letter to Steve Jobs > > > > regarding the HTC litigation wrote: > > > > "You’ve famously taken and built on ideas from your competitors, > > > > as have I, as we should, as great artists do. Why is what HTC has done > > > > worse? Whether an idea was patented doesn’t change the morality of > > > > copying it, it only changes the ability to sue. […] > > > > If Apple becomes a company that uses its might to quash > > > > competition instead of using its brains, it’s going to find the > > > > brainiest people will slowly stop working there. You know this, you > > > > watched it happen at Microsoft." > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > "The Java Posse" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [email protected]. > > > For more options, visit this group > > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
