Replies inline. The short of it: Rakesh has been hoodwinked by Mike Daisey.
On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:20:19 PM UTC+2, raks wrote: > > Reiner, > > "blaming western companies for this is an extraordinary claim that > requires extraordinary evidence" > > Apple has yearly reports about violations in its factories in China. > EVERY YEAR there are major violations. Do you not think if Apple > wanted zero violations it would get it? > No. How? I'm guessing that if Apple is willfully doing this they wouldn't be making reports about it. Also, what's the upside for apple in having these violations on the books? It's fairly obvious to me that [Brand Damage * Chance this turns into a worldwide stink] is many orders of magnitude larger than the amount apple saves on the contract with foxconn because these practices continue. So, what's apple's motivation? I firmly believe companies do things mostly because it earns money, and very slightly to stroke the ego of upper management. I rather doubt upper management is getting off on continuing unfair labour practices. But if it's not that, then either apple is stupid, or the financial gain of continuing these practices are incredibly large. I'd be very surprised if either is the case, so, either I'm missing something, or you must be wrong, i.e.: Apple would like there to be 0 infractions on the books but it is not capable of making this happen. > I would strongly urge you to listen to the podcast episode of This > American Life (460) where they interview a journalist about the > 'iEconomy'. > You're referring to episode 454, which is a lengthy interview about this with Mike Daisey. That entire episode is a lie. This episode was retracted in a full length episode named 'retraction', which is in fact episode 460: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/460/retraction > Rakesh > > I would point you to the recent podcast by This American Life where > they had to apologise about the > > On 28 March 2012 16:25, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> wrote: > > Conditions in china are pretty bad and 'we' (the western world) should > > definitely try to do something about it, but blaming western companies > for > > this is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. > > > > England, the US, and europe went through this phase too, and we didn't > have > > another continent goading us into it (the triangle shirt factory fire, > > untold numbers of kids in the coal mines, etc). In fact, if you look at > > what's happening in china right now, it's a vast improvement compared to > > Europe/UK/US's days of labour force abuse. It's not 'right' by any > stretch > > of the imagination, but it's better. Either China is learning from > example, > > or the pressure of western companies is helping, or China is just > naturally > > more inclined to value human life highly. > > > > Sure, big corporations are amoral. But they aren't bond villains wearing > a > > monocle, raising their pinky to their mouth, and going "Muhahahahaha!!!!" > > with a cat in their lap - they are amoral entities that just look out for > > the bottom line. They aren't any more or less evil than that. There is > > virtually no money to be earned i.e. employing kids on a foxconn > production > > line, and there's hundreds of millions of dollars worth of brand damage > on > > the line if it comes that apple by willful negligence or worse is the > source > > of it. If it were up to apple, 0 kids would be on that production line, > > purely because that's the right economic answer. > > > > NB: That last bit is also why you SHOULD get upset when companies do > things > > you find morally objectionable - in order for said company to take your > > moral complaint seriously you have to make it so that they lose more by > > ignoring you than by addressing your objection. However, what, exactly, > is > > apple doing that is morally objectionable? This is the same reason why I > > keep getting annoyed at Joe's continued defense of apple's patent and > > programmer restrictions with 'they are just a company'. Yes they are. > Which > > is why WE the geeks needs to force them into being nicer to us, they > aren't > > going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts! There its easy to > point > > out what apple is doing that I as a programmer find, well perhaps not > > _morally_ objectionable, but certainly pretty bad for my future: stoking > the > > fires of the patent war. > > > > NB: Insert pretty much whatever hardware selling tech brand you wish in > > place of 'apple', and insert any of many hundreds of factory > conglomerates > > operating in the shenzen area in place of 'foxconn', if you want. > > > > On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:43:40 PM UTC+2, fabrizio.giudici wrote: > >> > >> > >> Well, I think that in the west we're particular good at doing. For > >> instance, about worker exploitation in China's factories, I've never > seen > >> > >> a story that didn't start from west attention, or because a west > >> manufacturer was involved (e.g. Apple). > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager > >> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere." > >> [email protected] > >> http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "The Java Posse" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/sduoCTcxf6sJ. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/0b2KySviKDMJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
