Relevant: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/30/uk-apple-foxconn-idUSLNE82T00B20120330
On Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:58:00 PM UTC+2, raks wrote: > > Reiner, > > you didn't get what I was saying. I AM referring to the latest episode > where Mike Daisy's claims were challenged. > > Towards the end of that episode, there is an interview with a > journalist who wrote an article about the 'iEconomy'. Apple knows > about violations. > > Try again, > > Rakesh > > On 29 March 2012 12:25, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> wrote: > > Replies inline. > > > > The short of it: Rakesh has been hoodwinked by Mike Daisey. > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:20:19 PM UTC+2, raks wrote: > >> > >> Reiner, > >> > >> "blaming western companies for this is an extraordinary claim that > >> requires extraordinary evidence" > >> > >> Apple has yearly reports about violations in its factories in China. > >> EVERY YEAR there are major violations. Do you not think if Apple > >> wanted zero violations it would get it? > > > > > > No. How? I'm guessing that if Apple is willfully doing this they > wouldn't be > > making reports about it. Also, what's the upside for apple in having > these > > violations on the books? It's fairly obvious to me that [Brand Damage * > > Chance this turns into a worldwide stink] is many orders of magnitude > larger > > than the amount apple saves on the contract with foxconn because these > > practices continue. So, what's apple's motivation? > > > > I firmly believe companies do things mostly because it earns money, and > very > > slightly to stroke the ego of upper management. I rather doubt upper > > management is getting off on continuing unfair labour practices. But if > it's > > not that, then either apple is stupid, or the financial gain of > continuing > > these practices are incredibly large. I'd be very surprised if either is > the > > case, so, either I'm missing something, or you must be wrong, i.e.: Apple > > would like there to be 0 infractions on the books but it is not capable > of > > making this happen. > > > >> > >> I would strongly urge you to listen to the podcast episode of This > >> American Life (460) where they interview a journalist about the > >> 'iEconomy'. > > > > > > You're referring to episode 454, which is a lengthy interview about this > > with Mike Daisey. That entire episode is a lie. > > > > This episode was retracted in a full length episode named 'retraction', > > which is in fact episode 460: > > > > http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/460/retraction > > > > > > > >> > >> Rakesh > >> > >> I would point you to the recent podcast by This American Life where > >> they had to apologise about the > >> > >> On 28 March 2012 16:25, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Conditions in china are pretty bad and 'we' (the western world) should > >> > definitely try to do something about it, but blaming western companies > >> > for > >> > this is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. > >> > > >> > England, the US, and europe went through this phase too, and we didn't > >> > have > >> > another continent goading us into it (the triangle shirt factory fire, > >> > untold numbers of kids in the coal mines, etc). In fact, if you look > at > >> > what's happening in china right now, it's a vast improvement compared > to > >> > Europe/UK/US's days of labour force abuse. It's not 'right' by any > >> > stretch > >> > of the imagination, but it's better. Either China is learning from > >> > example, > >> > or the pressure of western companies is helping, or China is just > >> > naturally > >> > more inclined to value human life highly. > >> > > >> > Sure, big corporations are amoral. But they aren't bond villains > wearing > >> > a > >> > monocle, raising their pinky to their mouth, and going > >> > "Muhahahahaha!!!!" > >> > with a cat in their lap - they are amoral entities that just look out > >> > for > >> > the bottom line. They aren't any more or less evil than that. There is > >> > virtually no money to be earned i.e. employing kids on a foxconn > >> > production > >> > line, and there's hundreds of millions of dollars worth of brand > damage > >> > on > >> > the line if it comes that apple by willful negligence or worse is the > >> > source > >> > of it. If it were up to apple, 0 kids would be on that production > line, > >> > purely because that's the right economic answer. > >> > > >> > NB: That last bit is also why you SHOULD get upset when companies do > >> > things > >> > you find morally objectionable - in order for said company to take > your > >> > moral complaint seriously you have to make it so that they lose more > by > >> > ignoring you than by addressing your objection. However, what, > exactly, > >> > is > >> > apple doing that is morally objectionable? This is the same reason > why I > >> > keep getting annoyed at Joe's continued defense of apple's patent and > >> > programmer restrictions with 'they are just a company'. Yes they are. > >> > Which > >> > is why WE the geeks needs to force them into being nicer to us, they > >> > aren't > >> > going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts! There its easy to > >> > point > >> > out what apple is doing that I as a programmer find, well perhaps not > >> > _morally_ objectionable, but certainly pretty bad for my future: > stoking > >> > the > >> > fires of the patent war. > >> > > >> > NB: Insert pretty much whatever hardware selling tech brand you wish > in > >> > place of 'apple', and insert any of many hundreds of factory > >> > conglomerates > >> > operating in the shenzen area in place of 'foxconn', if you want. > >> > > >> > On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:43:40 PM UTC+2, fabrizio.giudici wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Well, I think that in the west we're particular good at doing. For > >> >> instance, about worker exploitation in China's factories, I've never > >> >> seen > >> >> > >> >> a story that didn't start from west attention, or because a west > >> >> manufacturer was involved (e.g. Apple). > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager > >> >> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere." > >> >> [email protected] > >> >> http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "The Java Posse" group. > >> > To view this discussion on the web visit > >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/sduoCTcxf6sJ. > >> > > >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > [email protected]. > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "The Java Posse" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/0b2KySviKDMJ. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/To4Hw7E-npkJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
