patrick leader wrote: > > my post may have seemed harsh, but i did start out by describing one of the > things i value about you. you've given it again: the urge to reread and > rethink, if needed.
Hi Patrick and Kakki, Yes, Patrick, your post did come across as unusually harsh. I sensed a lot of frustration in it, the kind of frustration that takes a long time to build up. Whether it ever needed to be expressed the way you did (or if, indeed, that's truly what you felt) are things you and Kakki need to sort out. I don't know for sure about the anti-American charge. I do know and have come to expect that Kakki is usually the first (and sometimes only) person to use the word Marxist or communist when making observations, sometimes with the implication that people on this list are one of those trouble-causing, anti-American communists. Whether that's your intent, Kakki, I don't know. From what you say, it never has been, but I remember being struck by things like your prim "my apologies to all the Marxists and communists on the list if I've said anything to offend you." On the surface, ok, that's an apology, but to who? I got the feeling you had particular people in mind. Who on the list has labeled themselves a Marxist or a communist? No one, as far as I know. To be a liberal or left-wing or look critically at or make negative comments about the way the US government does things is NOT necessarily to be a Marxist or communist. Something you'd probably say you agree with, Kakki, and yet you imply differently. I always see that "Marxist around every corner" paranoia as basic right-wing thinking, which is where you start from, Kakki, even if you don't think so. You'll probably see my observation as me "putting you in a box", which you so argue against. Strange, if someone calls me left-wing I don't start arguing about being put in a box. I say, yes, enough of my core political beliefs do fit into that category and I'm glad they show. I'm glad my actions and words fit my core beliefs enough for someone to "label" me. It doesn't mean that on some issues my beliefs might not fit that label, just that many of them do. So what is it about right-wingers that when the heat's on all of sudden there's an "I'm not really conservative" cry and a claim of being picked on, so that people guiltily back off, even if what they've been saying is accurate? (That's "accurate" from that person's point of view, of course, and the accuracy of anyone's observations can always be disagreed with.) As I see it, that pattern has happened over and over here, for years. And it's something that gets in the way of understanding and accepting each other. I mean, if we don't understand and accept our own beliefs for what they are, how is anyone else going to understand and accept what we're expressing? Conversation then starts feeling very slippery and frustrating as a result. So, whenever I see anyone use the word Marxist to explain "problems" (for example, in answering the "how did the anti-war people get so organized so quickly?" question) rather than as an attempt to actually understand Marxist theory, that to me is a sign of where that person's coming from, and right away I know it doesn't match my starting point so I try not to take their comments too seriously or personally. A glance at right-wing websites shows how often right-wingers rely on the "Marxist" word as a way of quickly dismissing whatever anyone who doesn't agree with them is saying. It's like a code word that also implies the need to fear people who think differently, and generally it seems like a way for the right-wing to control their troops. And a very effective one, from what I can tell, because they then stop thinking about issues or listening to other views. Again, I'm thinking of what I've seen on right-wing websites and heard on right-wing talk radio. The second characteristic of right-wing thinking is to rely on FACTS, as though objective, beyond-human viewpoint, absolute right/wrong information exists. Belief in that usually comes across as "I have the FACTS, and you don't", which is something we've seen on the list also. The more right-wing the person, the fiercer they are about that assumption. And the third characteristic of right-wing thinking is to basically believe what the US government says. I don't know if that's a belief in all authority or if it's specifically trust in the US government (at least when the conservatives are in charge) because to not trust the government is to be unpatriotic. And no right-winger wants to think of himself or herself as unpatriotic. That equals un-American, which may equal Marxist, and that's very very bad. Those last three paragraphs are extremely simplified and general views and, of course, there will be exceptions. Most importantly, I'm not specifically talking about Kakki in those descriptions. To your credit, Kakki, even when you start from one of those "characteristics" (something with which you may disagree), you often veer from them eventually and end up questioning yourself what I call your "starting point", albeit that's not the vocabulary you'd use. While I may see that as you contradicting or denying what you've said (and I find that frustrating), it can also be seen as being flexible enough to try seeing things another way, and viewed in that light, is an admirable characteristic. So, basically, for me it comes down to recognizing and trying to appreciate any person's starting point (which can only be known over time; no one issue or one post can fully convey that; and EVERY discussion shows a person's "politics"), and keeping that starting point in mind when reacting to someone. That usually (although not always) helps me keep the emotional reaction to a minimum. Whether I've confused or illuminated the issues with these thoughts... well, I can't tell. I'm aiming for the second, with a lot of musing along the way. As with every post sent to the list, it's all fair game for any comments or disagreements or anger or whatever reaction may come, from anyone. I feel like doing a summary now: Yes to harsh. Yes to Marxists, facts and trust, with implied anti-Americanism of list members. No to EXTREME right-wing. Yes to everyone questioning themselves and others (and IMO, that's a very good thing). Debra Shea NPIMH: RT's "Hard on Me". Think I'll give it a listen.
