> I can't comment on what Clark meant. However, many have turned the story
of Jesus into a
> corrupt version of it, which can justly be referred to as magical
thinking.
>
> The Xtian teaching is that ONLY those who believe that jesus died to
PAY(how appalling is
> a belief that a God would require such an evil thing as a sacrifice ) for
our sins will
> enter Heaven. Entering heaven does not depend on who one is as a person,
or ones attitude
> and beahviour to ones fellows, but in one's belief. to me that is a
corrution of what
> Jesus taught. Xtians also teach that people are not responsible for their
sins, that Jesus
> paid for them and that Satan urged us to commit them in the first place.
By believing
> this, Xtians think we escape the consequences of our thoughts and actions.
this is magical
> thiking.
Some Christians do think in this way but to imply that all Christians follow
this pattern of thought is a vast generalization and innaccurate. While
this may ring true in some cases, and may be something that has contaminated
Christianity throughout the years, I think this is an oversimplification of
the belief system of a "Christian". In my experience growing up as a
Christian in the Episcopal church, I found that belonging to this group of
people had everything to do with who I am as a person, and my attitude and
behavior towards others. And even though I have not attended a church
regularly in many years, I still find this one of the most shaping,
formative experiences I have ever experienced. It is here where I really
learned the concept of unconditional love, and it was with Chrisitians, and
it was largely spent in youth retreats where we would discuss the idea of
God, sing alot of songs, and decide for ourselves what we believed. It is
in fact in this setting where I first learned to play the guitar and wrote
my first songs, "The One and Only Way to God's Heart." Most of my years in
highschool where spent listening to rock 'n roll albums I would discover
every week and bring home, and reading almost every Dell Rey fantasy book in
print. I didn't really fit in in highschool and rarely went out. Belonging
to the Episcopal church in those years really helped me through some hard
years, growing up in a typical dysfunctional family. I still believe the
people I met there are some of the most genuine people I have ever known.
And while I don't really buy into the concept of "being saved", when I
reflect upon it, I think even these people can be genuine in their beliefs
which I think in a large part begins inside and is between oneself and God,
and that they can be genuinely good people. And while the beliefs that the
Baptist convention espouse horrify me, many of the churches are dropping
out, Jimmy Carter has dissassociated himself, and others. And you know, I'm
not really sure that I agree that Christians in general are just passing the
buck to Jesus, and blaming everything on Satan. I think that one can find
true redemption for their sins, accept their own responsibility for their
actions, and believe that they have been saved. I think these beliefs can
run very deep, deep into the heart, and is not as simplistic as you make it
out to be. People who pass everything on to Jesus simply to assuage their
guilt may exist but I think they are just using Christianity and I would not
consider them true Christians. I also disagree with how the term magic is
used here. Thinking in that way may be self-serving and shallow but not
magical. I think having a deep belief in the mystery God is magical. And
as I said earlier, having an appreciation for all things of childhood and
things of the imagination, that is magical. I think the word magical is
often misused in a negative way, that has little to do with the true meaning
of the word. And it ironic that there was such a clash between early
Christianity and the old religion, as I think in some ways they are not so
far off from each other.
> Jesus taught about personal repsonsibilty(we reap what we sow). He didn't
say we could
> escape the consequences of our actions. He did say that thru prayer and
meditation we
> could CHANGE ourselves on the inside, thus making it less likely we would
make mistakes.
> he also said that the Kingsom of Heaven is WITHIN, not somewhere else.
I guess we agree here, though I still disagree with the liberal use of the
word "Christian".
> Many people witter on about the 'suffering' of jesus and what a huge
sacrifice he made. As
> we know, his death was horrible and he was betrayed. Horribel Yet he had
parents who loved
> and cared for him. The suffering came at the end of his life. Compare His
suffering with
> that a girl named Anna who was beaten and burned, starved and tied up in a
bath until she
> died of cold and malnutrion. She was 6 years old. She suffered this abuse
for years.
> people who in their fantasy think Jesus' suffering was anything like this,
have no clue
> what suffering is. What about the Jews in the camps? What about the
starving in Afirca?
> What about the millions of children starved, beaten, raped, killed
everyday in this world?
Yes, what about all of this? It is truly horrible but I don't see how the
suffering one person experienced, Jesus, is any less horrible than any of
the other suffering that goes on. Two more teenagers where killed this week
in Atlanta, one who attended a keg party that was set up and paid for by her
friend's mother. She was 18, bright and beautiful, just starting life and
now she is dead. I don't think people believe that Jesus's suffering makes
all this other suffering okay. The point is that Jesus did make a sacrifice
and showed that there was another life where there would be no suffering.
In one part you're saying to believe in unconditional love and that you
believe people can truly find redemption and then you're saying that Jesus'
death was indeed horrible yet somehow inconsequential. I think this is
again, a generalization of what Jesus' sacrifice truly means to people who
are Christians. I don't see any point in comparing his suffering to this
other suffering. How can you place a value on how bad one case of suffering
is compared to another. I think his suffering is symbolic in that we find
somehow we can forgive people who are responsible for all of this suffering
that goes on by showing them unconditional love, though it seems like this
is much easier said than done. In "The Brothers Karamozov", Ivan has an
argument in which he says if one little child has to suffer( and he gives
several descriptions of some children who have suffered horribly terrible
deaths) then he doesn't want to go to Heaven. He'd give his ticket away if
he could keep these children from suffering. I think this is an argument
that everyone must have themselves to decide if they can accept the death of
Christ, as a redemption for the world.
It seems to me the great sadness is people's inability to
> understand unconditonal love, to understand that our sins will NOT hold us
back unelss we
> allow them to. No matter how far from the light we may wonder, the way
back is never
> closed off. And God's love is never withheld.
This is true. I've really enjoyed this discussion as it has compelled me to
reexamine my own beliefs.
Victor
