Ariel and Jörn have access.  Thanks guys for filling this out so quickly!  I
really appreciate it.

Mike Hostetler
http://amountaintop.com


On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 13:05, Ariel Flesler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Access please, [EMAIL PROTECTED] :)
>
> Thanks
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Jörn Zaefferer <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Yes, just contact Scott Jehl directly. Either he can handle it, or at
>> least he knows someone to delegate to.
>>
>> I'd like to get access to the planning document!
>>
>> Jörn
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Mike Hostetler
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Glen-
>> >
>> > Thanks for your feedback.  I've started a Google Document with this
>> > information, it's just a skeleton right now.  It can be viewed publicly
>> at:
>> > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgv8xf4f_54fchbjkc3
>> >
>> > If anyone would like access, please contact me directly.
>> >
>> > I currently have plans in my head for how to approach the development of
>> the
>> > new site, and how to manage the migration process.  I'm not sure how to
>> > communicate this, other then to just go ahead and do it, after we've
>> > finalized and agreed to the planning document.  My approach reflects my
>> own
>> > style and my goal of getting a quality product as fast as possible.  I'm
>> > open to feedback on this.
>> >
>> > One area where I know I will need a bit of help is in the graphical
>> design
>> > arena.  Should I connect with Scott Jehl, the guy who designed the main
>> > site?  I fully plan on using the current Drupal theme, but the
>> individual
>> > page designs, (CSS and Graphics) are not my best strength.  I can
>> certainly
>> > tackle them, and leave room for improvement, but I think that the jQuery
>> > community deserves and expects a certain level of quality here.
>>  Thoughts?
>> >
>> > Mike Hostetler
>> > http://amountaintop.com
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 13:47, Glen Lipka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Just a bit of "best practice" for designing a better experience:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Create personas. (1-2 hour)  These are basically a list of the
>> >> people who matter and their different "types".
>> >> Example:  New jQuery fan looking for a simple autocomplete.  Name:
>> >> Chuck.  What chucks wants: confidence the plugin is a good one.
>> >> options, comments, etc
>> >> Example 2: Advanced jQuery plugin author.  Name: Sarah.  What sarah
>> >> wants: SVN Access, simple updating, etc
>> >> There should be around 5 personas or so.  (Less than 10)  Give them
>> >> pictures.  I swear to god, it makes the whole process easier.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Write down use cases (a.k.a. user stories). (2-6 hours) These are
>> >> REALLY helpful to manage the requirements.  If your implementation can
>> >> achieve these use cases, then you know you didnt forget something
>> >> like. "Sarah needs to change her password for SVN".
>> >>
>> >> 3. Design the user experience in something simple/fast/cheap.  I
>> >> suggest powerpoint, but it could be anything.  Just so long as it is
>> >> the cheapest fastest possible way to show how the thing should be
>> >> built.
>> >>
>> >> 4. Eat your own young.  Please don't get hung up on drupal or existing
>> >> ideas/systems.  Redoing something ALWAYS is better than trying to
>> >> shoehorn an update.  Starting from scratch is fun.  Go for it!  You
>> >> might end up choosing drupal again, but don't let a bad decision
>> >> before affect your decisions today.
>> >>
>> >> 5. Iterate.  It's important to leave room for growth.  Wouldn't it be
>> >> nice for people to vote for a plugin that doesn't exist?  or to pay a
>> >> plugin author money to extend it? ideas are powerful.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, I wish I had more time to devote to jQuery. :(  So much
>> >> powerpoint these days.
>> >>
>> >> I'd be happy to help anyway I can. :)
>> >> Keep "pluggin" away!
>> >>
>> >> Glen
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Oct 19, 12:27 pm, "Jörn Zaefferer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Thanks Rey for sharing ypur AMO experience!
>> >> >
>> >> > Afaik doing away with hosting wasn't an option anyway, only project
>> >> > management doesn't fit the picture.
>> >> >
>> >> > You're right that reviewing is a lot of work and requires resources
>> we
>> >> > probably don't have. A less involved alternative would be to write
>> >> > down criteria that good plugins should adhere, and just check if
>> those
>> >> > are met, and if so, highlight the plugin as such. This would cover
>> >> > aspects that a potential user would usually check before deciding to
>> >> > use a plugin, like presence and completeness of documentation.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jörn
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:31 AM, Rey Bango <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Sorry for jumping so late into this discussion. Thanks for the
>> kudos
>> >> > > on
>> >> > > Mozilla AMO Joern.
>> >> >
>> >> > > The AMO add-on site is pretty involved. While it looks very simple
>> on
>> >> > > the front-end, there's quite a bit going on on the back-end that
>> helps
>> >> > > us add, disable, review, approve, diff and version add-ons.
>> >> >
>> >> > > While I like some of the ideas being thrown around, I'm not
>> convinced
>> >> > > that doing away with hosting is the answer. The fact that we have a
>> >> > > central place for developers to come to to find plugins is a very
>> >> > > important advantage to the project. Although there are many plugins
>> >> > > for
>> >> > > similar functionality, the fact that we have so many also needs to
>> be
>> >> > > viewed as a "positive" as it offers choice to our user base. Having
>> >> > > lots
>> >> > > of choices does make things confusing but I'd rather have a little
>> >> > > confusion than nothing to offer at all. In addition, there have a
>> >> > > number
>> >> > > of cases of add-ons that have been seemingly abandoned in the repo
>> get
>> >> > > resurrected by a user who needed the functionality and took it
>> over.
>> >> >
>> >> > > If anything, I would like to see a combination of both a hosting
>> >> > > scenario and directory listing. This would allow those developers
>> that
>> >> > > wanted to upload their plugin a place to house it while those that
>> >> > > don't
>> >> > > can simply point back to their site.
>> >> >
>> >> > > I do think, as has been mentioned, that we need to get a better
>> system
>> >> > > in place to properly categorize the plugins. On AMO, for example,
>> we
>> >> > > have multiple categories but we also offer a recommended list of
>> top
>> >> > > add-ons (about 40 of them) and in addition, for each category, we
>> >> > > offer
>> >> > > a list of category recommended add-ons. This has been hugely
>> >> > > successful
>> >> > > and in fact, motivates many add-on developers to really improve the
>> >> > > quality of their work. I can see the same thing being very
>> beneficial
>> >> > > to
>> >> > > the jQuery repo. So going with what Joern said, I think we need to
>> get
>> >> > > back to listing our official plugins the way that we used to and
>> also
>> >> > > create a recommended list of add-ons that we know are top-notch.
>> >> >
>> >> > > In terms of reviewing add-ons, understand that it would be a VERY
>> big
>> >> > > task. On AMO, we struggle with that daily because of the number of
>> >> > > submissions as well as the time involved in reviewing the add-ons.
>> At
>> >> > > this point, I'm not sure if we're prepared to take on that task
>> unless
>> >> > > we were able to get a good group of volunteers to check the
>> plugins.
>> >> > > It's definitely a good idea and again, would help the community by
>> >> > > giving them feedback on improving their work.
>> >> >
>> >> > > As for SVN, project management, etc, these are features that are
>> way
>> >> > > outside of the scope of a plugin repo. This is something that we
>> >> > > should
>> >> > > *NOT* do. We don't do this on AMO because of the complexity of
>> this.
>> >> > > On
>> >> > > AMO, we host the files necessary to install and add-on and that's
>> it.
>> >> > > The developers use other services for managing their project (eg:
>> >> > > MozDev.org or Google Code).
>> >> >
>> >> > > I would say that in order to do this the right way, we would
>> probably
>> >> > > need to build our own custom system. At the moment, Drupal doesn't
>> >> > > seem
>> >> > > to provide the best way to find plugins and perhaps it's because
>> it's
>> >> > > not meant to do so.
>> >> >
>> >> > > Rey...
>> >> >
>> >> > > Jörn Zaefferer wrote:
>> >> > >> That sounds very good to me! Releases usually consist of a
>> download,
>> >> > >> a
>> >> > >> version number and a changelog. Thats all the repository should
>> touch
>> >> > >> in terms of project hosting - thats also what for example
>> >> > >> addons.mozilla.com provides. Defining a convention to provide
>> these
>> >> > >> via Google Code or a Wordpress blog with minimal effort would free
>> >> > >> other resources to focus on discussion and promotion of plugins.
>> >> >
>> >> > >> Jörn
>> >> >
>> >> > >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Diego <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> >> > >>> That would make sense because drupal is very poor and every
>> plugin
>> >> > >>> I've ever come across has its own homepage hosted elsewhere.
>> Maybe
>> >> > >>> plugins.jquery.com should focus on being a community for users -
>> not
>> >> > >>> developers of jQuery - allowing users to...
>> >> > >>> - 'watch' their favourite plugins
>> >> > >>> - discuss/get help from fellow users
>> >> > >>> - share / rate / comment
>> >> > >>> - post related links to demos / tutorials
>> >> > >>> - stay up-to-date with the latest releases
>> >> >
>> >> > >>> And the latest releases could be simply based on an XML feed form
>> >> > >>> the
>> >> > >>> author's own website - it's probably safe to assume every plugin
>> >> > >>> developer has one...
>> >> >
>> >> > >>> You can't please everyone - so focus on pleasing the users and
>> let
>> >> > >>> the
>> >> > >>> developers manage their projects however they're most comfortable
>> >> > >>> with...
>> >> >
>> >> > >>> How about that?
>> >> >
>> >> > >>> Cheers,
>> >> > >>> Diego A.
>> >> >
>> >> > >>> On Oct 14, 4:00 pm, "Nathan Bubna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> > >>>> +1 get out of the plugin project hosting business.  make the
>> plugin
>> >> > >>>> site a way to list/find/promote plugins, not a place to manage
>> >> > >>>> them.
>> >> >
>> >> > >>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Diego A. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>> >> > >>>> wrote:
>> >> > >>>>> Hi guys,
>> >> > >>>>> I agree with all the points raised by Yehuda and Jorn, but
>> >> > >>>>> unfortunately
>> >> > >>>>> Mike, the biggest problem of all is Drupal.
>> >> > >>>>> In a nutshell :-
>> >> > >>>>> - The navigation is shocking
>> >> > >>>>> - Issue management is long winded and painfully time-consuming
>> >> > >>>>> - So is uploading new files / creating new releases
>> >> > >>>>> I feel Yehuda and Jorn's points are great, but they focus
>> >> > >>>>> primarily around
>> >> > >>>>> giving jQuery user's better access to plugin - which is
>> undeniably
>> >> > >>>>> a
>> >> > >>>>> must-have great idea. However, The system must also cater for
>> >> > >>>>> those who do
>> >> > >>>>> (and will) voluntarily maintain their projects within the
>> >> > >>>>> community.
>> >> > >>>>> With that in mind, I recently moved all my plugins to Google
>> code
>> >> > >>>>> for the
>> >> > >>>>> following reasons :-
>> >> > >>>>> - Sub-version access
>> >> > >>>>> - Easy navigation
>> >> > >>>>> - Easy-to-use issue management system (with configurable email
>> >> > >>>>> alerts)
>> >> > >>>>> - WIKI (for project documentation)
>> >> > >>>>> - Ability for project collaboration
>> >> > >>>>> Hope that helps in some way...
>> >> > >>>>> Cheers,
>> >> > >>>>> Diego A.
>> >> > >>>>> 2008/10/13 Mike Hostetler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > >>>>>> Hi Everyone-
>> >> > >>>>>> I'd like to start a discussion on how we can improve the
>> plugins
>> >> > >>>>>> repository to better fulfill the needs of the community.  When
>> we
>> >> > >>>>>> first created the plugins site, there were a lot less plugins.
>> >> > >>>>>>  As
>> >> > >>>>>> jQuery's popularity continues to rise, the need for additional
>> >> > >>>>>> features for plugin authors is growing.
>> >> > >>>>>> As the person most familiar with the plugins site, I get a
>> decent
>> >> > >>>>>> amount of requests for tweaks here and there.  Unfortunately,
>> >> > >>>>>> because
>> >> > >>>>>> of the choice of using Drupal with Drupal's Project module,
>> the
>> >> > >>>>>> amount
>> >> > >>>>>> of features that can be easily turned on is small.  I've been
>> >> > >>>>>> very
>> >> > >>>>>> cautious at modifying the source code of the Project module
>> for
>> >> > >>>>>> many
>> >> > >>>>>> reasons.  I'm in touch with the leaders of the Project Module,
>> >> > >>>>>> having
>> >> > >>>>>> met up with them at the last Drupalcon.  Currently, there is
>> >> > >>>>>> ongoing
>> >> > >>>>>> work on the Project module for Drupal.org, and the Project
>> module
>> >> > >>>>>> remains the last major issue in upgrading Drupal.org to Drupal
>> 6.
>> >> > >>>>>>  So,
>> >> > >>>>>> this problem is bigger then jQuery.
>> >> > >>>>>> What I'd like to solicit is feedback on the following:
>> >> > >>>>>> - What works with the current plugins site, what are it's
>> >> > >>>>>> strengths?
>> >> > >>>>>> - What doesn't work, where does it fall down?
>> >> > >>>>>> - What are the top 5 major features missing from the current
>> >> > >>>>>> site?
>> >> > >>>>>> - Are there any other open source project management solutions
>> >> > >>>>>> that
>> >> > >>>>>> are worthy of consideration to replace Drupal and the Project
>> >> > >>>>>> module?
>> >> > >>>>>> (PS. Because of the work involved in this, I would consider
>> this
>> >> > >>>>>> only
>> >> > >>>>>> as a last resort)
>> >> > >>>>>> - Any other feedback is appreciated
>> >> > >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >> > >>>>>> Mike Hostetler
>> >> > >>>>> --
>> >> > >>>>> Cheers,
>> >> > >>>>> Diego A.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ariel Flesler
> http://flesler.blogspot.com
>
> >
>

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