On Wednesday 03 December 2008 12:21:22 pm Moin Ayazifar wrote: > Hi, > > Also > > Apache Aegis
Just an FYI: CXF has a databinding called "Aegis" that came from XFire. It's obviously not a whole project name, but it is already associated with Apache a little bit. Dan > Apache Gaurdian > > Thanks, > > Moin > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Jeremy Haile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Adam, thanks for all of your thoughts. > > > > I particularly like these names you mentioned: > > Apache Fortress > > Apache Stronghold > > Apache Shield > > > > Of course, we need to do some due diligence on these to determine how > > likely they could be trademark issues with other security products. > > > > Jeremy > > > > On Dec 1, 2008, at 7:12 PM, Adam Taft wrote: > >> Hi Emmanuel, > >> > >> Thanks for the quick reply. I think it goes without saying that I'm > >> naive about the Apache process, and obviously your history with them. > >> > >> Alcatraz has a very dark and negative connotation. The prison itself > >> was not looked upon favorably in the eyes of many. It was an extremely > >> controversial place, to say the least. I can't imagine the ASF would > >> want a subproject with that name. > >> > >> I really like the idea of "Apache Security API." That really works > >> because of the strong Apache brand prefix. org.apache.security for the > >> package name, etc. It means what it says. Or, asa4j. > >> > >> Some other ideas: > >> > >> Apache Guard > >> Apache Fortress > >> Apache Frontline > >> Apache Stonewall > >> Apache Stronghold > >> Apache Redoubt > >> Apache Garrison > >> Apache Shield > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Adam Taft > >> > >> Emmanuel Lecharny wrote: > >>> adamtaft wrote: > >>>> Hi, > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>>> I'm not really a contributor to the JSecurity project yet (though I > >>>> hope to > >>>> be in the future). However, this thread has caught my attention, and > >>>> so I > >>>> thought I'd give a couple of thoughts. > >>> > >>> thanks for the detailed mail ! > >>> > >>>> I have an interest, call it a hobby, in name related issues for > >>>> software projects, open source included. So, though I don't speak > >>>> from any official > >>>> background (I guess beyond a little professional), I would like to > >>>> point out > >>>> a few things about the name Alcatraz. > >>>> > >>>> First, as I believe has been mentioned, the term Alcatraz has been > >>>> associated with other software products already. So, this is bad news > >>>> with > >>>> regards to trademark related issues. Just because its a geographic > >>>> location > >>>> doesn't mean that it can't be trademarked. Thus, likely these other > >>>> software products are going to have problems with any related use of > >>>> the term Alcatraz. > >>> > >>> True. Java is also a geographical location, but I guarantee you you'll > >>> be sued immediatly if you use it for a software name ... Now, is this > >>> the case for Alcatraz? Might be... > >>> > >>>> Second, the connotation for JSecurity implies that the product is used > >>>> to > >>>> keep people out of the protected system. This is what the term > >>>> "security" > >>>> implies, right? Alcatraz is a prison. It was NOT meant to keep > >>>> people out, > >>>> it was meant to keep people in. The use is only quasi-related, and > >>>> even confusing, for a product with your feature set. Alcatraz > >>>> software would be > >>>> a better name for a product which keeps workstation/network users > >>>> constrained in their internet use, like a firewall, or a web proxy, > >>>> for example. Or a child internet monitoring product. > >>> > >>> This is also something which came to my mind (I personally find Knox a > >>> better fit), but it's not as important as to have a name which can be > >>> recalled. > >>> > >>>> Don't underestimate the importance of this point. The name of a > >>>> software > >>>> should ideally be somewhat self describing, especially when starting > >>>> out. Until the name becomes a core brand, having a self describing > >>>> name can make > >>>> a big difference. > >>> > >>> This is where it starts to be difficult :) The good point is that we > >>> are encapsulated by the Apache brand, and one of the rule of thumb you > >>> can find on the apache site is : "Consider using functional names, > >>> especially for products of existing projects, e.g. for an "Apache Foo" > >>> project, the product name "Apache Foo Pipelines". " > >>> (http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html) > >>> Something like Apache Security API for Java would be a perfect fit, > >>> except that it's a pretty long name (unless we call it asa4j :) > >>> > >>>> Third, I don't think you can underestimate how important it is that > >>>> people > >>>> can search the name of your product and find it through Google (and > >>>> friends). Clearly the term Alcatraz has a huge number of unrelated > >>>> hits, > >>>> and you would clearly be lost any search engine placement with the > >>>> name. Much better to have a name for your software that is the only > >>>> known reference so that people can easily find you after having hear > >>>> the name. This is why so many companies go crazy and conjure > >>>> completely strange and nonsensical product names. > >>> > >>> Apache related product are quickly highly ranked. > >>> > >>>> <snip> > >>>> Fifth, it seems like you're making preparations for something that you > >>>> don't > >>>> even know to be a problem. Yes, the Apache legal team should be > >>>> consulted. However, it seems like jumping the gun to just start > >>>> changing package names > >>>> with anticipation of a name change. You would be crazy to start > >>>> renaming > >>>> packages based on some unknown possibility that it has to happen in > >>>> the future. What value does this add to the software? > >>> > >>> None, clearly, except that at some point, it should be done. > >>> > >>>> Following the sigma-six and/or extreme programming world view, you > >>>> shouldn't > >>>> be making any change to your software until the change is actually > >>>> required > >>>> and value is added. Do you have a pending lawsuit? > >>> > >>> In any case, this is not something we should be waiting for. > >>> > >>>> Has the Apache council > >>>> suggested the change? > >>> > >>> Three of this project's mentors has suggested that the name should be > >>> changed. I wish we are all wrong, but I'm afraid we are not ... > >>> > >>>> Are you being blocked by the incubation process? Why > >>>> even consider a change until it needs to be done. Energy could be > >>>> better > >>>> spent on other matters. > >>> > >>> This is a part of the incubation process : > >>> "Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and > >>> check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already > >>> trademarked for an existing software product." > >>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/jsecurity.html, in Project setup. > >>> > >>>> <snip/> > >>>> I think you all are better just letting this thing ride until > >>>> something real > >>>> convicting suggests you need a change. JSecurity is a great product > >>>> name > >>>> which you should stick with until otherwise needed. > >>> > >>> But sadly, even if it's a good name, we think it's already used, even > >>> if it's not trademarked. ("Trademarks exist by virtue of use, not just > >>> registration.") > >>> > >>>> And, if that day comes, > >>>> Alcatraz is just simply the wrong name, in my humble opinion, for all > >>>> the > >>>> reasons mentioned above. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Thanks ! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational > only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not > constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions > and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for > official ASF policies and documents. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Daniel Kulp [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dankulp.com/blog
