Andrew Lentvorski wrote:
DJA wrote:
There's never going to be complete openness in hardware.
Hogwash.
You call that a rebuttal? :)
That's not an unusual situation. For instance, WiFi chipsets are in
the same category. AFAIK, there is only one WiFi card with an "open"
driver and it's considered a fairly crappy and outdated chipset.
The wireless drivers are closed *by law*. In order to get FCC
certification, your card cannot be used outside of compliance
specification. Closed firmware ensures that.
The why is really not important in this context. People bitch about
closed source 3D video card drivers. They don't bitch about closed
source WiFi drivers. The majority that bitch don't do so because they
can't write code for them, but because...well, it's fashionable.
We all know why WiFi drivers are closed. And we accept that and move on.
We use the cards anyway. Maybe someday WiFi drivers will be open. We
also know why video card drivers are closed. Some throw a hissy fit
because they don't like the (mis?)-perceived politics producing those
closed drivers, and so prefer to hold their breath until the world
conforms. Some of us accept that while there are reasons, good bad or
indifferent, we'll also choose a pragmatic path of using what's
available today, while hoping that tomorrow we can feel all warm and
fuzzy because no penguins died in the course of making our video
performance rock.
[snip of erudite masturbation]
The graphics card makers are under no such restriction. They keep
things closed primarily to avoid patent litigation as well as a few
misrepresentation lawsuits (graphics drivers are notorious for bogus
"optimizations").
Well, that's one perception, and there's probably some truth to that
particular conspiracy theory. Nevertheless, that's the world we live in
at the moment. With computers, that's all that counts. If I want fast 3D
video, I can either stand on principles - not a an ignoble choice - or
make run the best of what's available. I choose to pick my fights.
Boycotting video card makers is not on my top ten list of political
causes. I've also used Polaroid cameras and still drink Coca~Cola.
I think this whole "Boo! on hardware makers who, in highly competitive
markets, don't open source their drivers" to be a bunch of unrealistic
pie-in-the-sky nit picking.
No, it's not. The open source world is headed for a showdown over
hardware just like it went through about software. The combination of
Linux and GNU broke through the closed software problem. We have yet
to break through the closed hardware problem.
Yes it is. My prognostications are just a likely as yours. There's
always going to be new hardware. It's not always going to be open
source. Not unless and until there is a massive paradigm shift in the
Human condition. And as long as we're throwing conspiracy theories
about, I don't see that shift happening in this country as long as more
people vote for third-rate reality TV contestants than vote in national
elections.
There is a reason why the open source folks are fighting things like
DRM, the broadcast flag, and hardware security chips as well as the laws
that make them enforceable.
"Look at the Wookie". Of course there are reasons. But none of them have
anything to do with recommending a laptop video chipset today.
The "open source graphics card" went nowhere. Main reason: the people
doing it didn't understand hardware. Producing a basic card that had
RAM, a RAMDAC, a DVI interface and a PCI interface would have been
enough. After that, the "bazaar" type model would have created the 3D
acceleration. However, everybody wanted to do the "cool, shiny" 3D
stuff instead of the "hard, boring, essential" hardware bits. Result:
flameout.
Of course, nobody wanted to *buy* that card either. "Well, it sucks."
was the response. So did Linux version 1.X.
Why the open source video card hasn't worked out may be interesting from
a technical, even a political perspective. Hopefully it will someday.
But *today* both nVidia and ATI video cards *do* work. And quite well.
The thread's originator is interested in today's working options, not
today's non-working failures.
The whole world doesn't need to be open source.
No, but we need at least *one* credible open source alternative for
every piece of hardware. Then people can vote with their dollars.
I do agree that would be nice, Want != Need. However, the high tech
world evolves very quickly. As soon as all current hardware has been
opened completely, ten now-unforseen ideas will replace and obsolete
them, and for a time will be based on secrets kept again and for a time
by a few. Maybe that sucks. But I'd rather use what's available today
than hold my breath waiting for what /might/ be available tomorrow. I
like breathing.
Granted, there probably isn't a whole lot of trade secret stuff in
their hardware, but you can't blame them for trying to protect what
little there is, given the short life cycles of some computer hardware
(video chips being the most prominent example).
As I said, that is more about litigation than secrets.
Which really doesn't affect my buying decisions today.
In addition, that short lifecycle is *part of the problem*. I am fairly
happy developing on a Radeon 9200 equivalent which *does* have open
source drivers. Unfortunately, I can't *buy* a Radeon 9200 in a laptop
form factor anymore. Oops.
Damned progress always seems to run straight into the path of tradition.
Not all hardware works under all
circumstances for all applications. Nvidia's included.
Correct. If I want to play games, I run Windows. Just so you realize
that same argument implies that you shouldn't use Linux for games.
Maybe you shouldn't. But I do. At least those that run on Linux. So do
better than they do on Windows. I wish more did. That more don't has
nothing to do with video drivers being closed source. I've gotten over it.
BTW, I think it's a bit inconsistent to chide nVidia for supplying a
closed source driver for Linux while at the same time recommending
Apple which is also uses some closed source drivers - including nVidia's.
Ummm, he's recommending the *hardware*. Not OS X. And you will note
that he recommended the Intel graphics which is claimed to have an open
source driver.
-a
Ummm, last time I checked, video cards are hardware, and unless I'm
mistaken, Macs still use video cards - which require drivers. Unless
you're implying that nVidia (or ATI) supply open source drivers for
Macs? Regardless of which OS is running on the Mac, if it's got either
an ATI or nVidia chipset, the OEM drive won't be open source. I was only
pointing out how I thought it odd that Joshua noted the closed source
nVidia driver as a negative in regards to Linux on a laptop, but
ignoring the fact that Mac hardware also requires a closed driver for
equivalent video chips.
--
Best Regards,
~DJA.
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