I apologize, Amir, for having come across as aggressive towards you to
the point that you felt obliged to write, "you are pretty aggressive
towards me for an unknown reason". Please believe me that this is
neither my attitude nor my intention.
What I reacted against was a) the example of Arabic/Latin script mixing,
and b) the questioning of Dr. Moshkriz' credentials (which seemed unfair
to me). I, like you, also have many other important things to do, hence
I'm rather direct in my communication (which is probably compounded by
my being German).
I have received a reply from Dr. Erik Anonby who is an academic
knowledgeable about Luri languages. I had forwarded the entire
communication thread for him (after all, it's on the public langcom
list), and he expressed his disappointment about these developments. He
agrees with you that the current orthography is more difficult to read
than the previously used one, yet insists that the language expressed by
it is good Northern Luri and not another language. Hence, the problem is
of an orthographic and not a linguistic nature.
Dr. Anonby is happy to give orthography development guidance to the
lrc:wp editors, especially as he is currently publishing a book on
orthography development in Luri languages - which unfortunately will
only be available in six months time. I append the relevant parts of his
message here below.
In the hope that lrc:wp can be revised orthographically so that it will
be accessible to all N Luri readers without being shut down, and with
best wishes,
Oliver
On 03-Feb-16 2:59 PM, Erik Anonby wrote:
[...] The language written in the N Luri Wikipedia is indeed N Luri,
but the orthography is very different than one was there before, and
less readable.
It’s true that there are some symbols and conventions which resemble
Kurdish (like the way that all short vowels are written, and hamze
is written on a small character at the beginning of words), but
strictly speaking the orthography is not based on Kurdish either.
I have been working on orthographies of Iranian languages for some
time now, and my personal opinion is that for readability’s sake, it
should be as close to Persian as possible, but marking all
linguistic differences from Persian, including a lot of short vowel
diacritics. I am in the process of publishing a book on orthography
of Bakhtiari, also in the Luri group and immediately to the south,
where we test different conventions and weigh the options, and I
hope that many of the principles there would be useful to the
contributors. However, it will likely be about six months until it
is released and I can’t share the manuscript right now. But it will
be freely available online once it is released.
It’s a shame that the contributors maligned Dr Moshkriz based on the
university where he worked. (As is turns out, Shiraz closed its PhD
program in linguistics, so Moshkriz had to go elsewhere; I believe
he is now based at Shahid Beheshti University in Tehran, where he is
doing a postdoc). I don’t like to be part of such a negative online
community. There are many good scholars working at the smaller
universities of Iran, and in fact many good writers of Iran’s many
languages that are not university scholars. We are all working
together to facilitate the use of Iran’s linguistics heritage in
written format, and we should help each other and consult each other
respectfully rather than tearing good-intentioned works down with
criticism directed at people (which is unfair), rather than ideas
(which is fair).
Please communicate my disappointment, as written in these
paragraphs, to the people concerned.
Also, I think that what people are calling “Central Luri” is indeed
a type of Northern Luri (or in fact the same language), which is
spoken in Luristan Province and some surrounding areas. But in my
opinion, the issues facing us here are primarily orthographic rather
than linguistic.
I am happy to communicate further about specific questions you might
have.
[...]
On 03-Feb-16 2:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
Amir, I would be really happy to have an academic knowledgeable about
Luri to give his opinion.
It is distressing to learn that a Wiki may not be read because of the
insistence of editors on a script that is not legible. I understand
Oliver's argument however I doubt that Luri is unique to Wikipedia. If
it is, we have a problem. How to deal with is unclear. When an
academic that you trust provides us with some proper explanations, we
can digest it, ask further questions if need be and then decide what
to do.
I would be obliged if you make the necessary contacts.
Thanks,
Gerard
On 3 February 2016 at 11:20, Amir Ladsgroup <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
That's very fond of Gerard :)
Regarding my English, You could defend it without judging about my
English.
Regarding the homemade script: A huge proportion (almost all) of
Lur people went to school and are educated but most of them no
matter where they originated can't read this wiki which means we
have a big problem, It's like using sign language script for
English and saying look! without learning you can't read. There is
another script for this language which is readable by anyone. So
it's easy to see argument of homemade scripts is definitely wrong.
It's interesting to me that admins of those Wikis admitted on
originality of this script several times and they also mentioned
that User:Mehramooz made up this script.
Regarding your analysis. Please also see this table
<https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86/%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C_%DB%B5%DB%B5#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>.
Biggest difference between the original script (script of the wiki
right now) and the script being used by Lurish speakers is
characters like "ڤ", "ئ", etc. For example "ئ" is already being
used both in Persian and Arabic but not as often as this original
script is using. Instead in the current script of Lurish (the
proper script IMO) "ۆ" is being used (which is not a Persian
character and it's solely a Kurdish one) and this character is
more often. This example shows the proper script(TM) is not just
Persian, in some cases it's closer to Kurdish. Or using "أ"
instead of "ه" sometimes (and not all the times) to make the
script more complicated, i.e. give it unnecessary precision which
make it hard for ordinary readers. These examples are not easy to
see for people who doesn't have a deep knowledge about Iranian
languages. I can go on for a very long time and give you much
more examples *if you want.*
Last sentence refers to the thing I want to say here: I can
convince you if you want to listen. I'm not trying to fulfill my
nationalism, I believe in no borders. I'm only a wiki lover who
tries to make Wikipedia readable for sever million more people. I
received lots of complaints from Lur Wikipedians about this
language, people who didn't know how to make a compliment to the
language committee but they knew me as a cross-wiki contributor
and they shared their concerns with me. I made some researches (by
asking offline from Lur friends I knew which I'm happy to have a
lot of them) and came to the same conclusion so I sent an email
here. But you are pretty aggressive towards me for an unknown
reason insisting on political part of Iranian languages. Frankly I
have much more important things to do and I won't continue until
langcom members think it's needed.
Besy
On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:51 PM Oliver Stegen
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Okay, I've had a look into this (I actually do read Arabic
script).
1. No recently edited articles in lrc:wp which I looked at
show *any* mixture of scripts; they are completely based on
Arabic script, with language-specific modifications like
necessary for any non-Arabic language, e.g. گ (as also used in
Persian but not original in Arabic script). The example below
is not comparable as it actually mixes two completely
different scripts, namely Arabic and Latin. Faulting special
characters in Northern Luri writing which deviate from Persian
is like faulting Germanic languages for using different
grapheme combination for the same sound, e.g. phonetic [u] is
written oo in English, oe in Dutch, o in Norwegian and u in
German, or for faulting German to add special characters like
ä, ö, ü and ß instead of sticking to the original Latin alphabet.
2. Lurish languages are closely related to both Kurdish and
Persian languages (with lexical cognate percentages between
60% and 85%), hence it is no wonder that to a Persian speaker,
Luri languages look like they had been mixed with Kurdish.
3. Even an individual language like Northern Luri constitutes
a dialect chain which means that any text written by a
specific Northern Luri writer may not be recognised by another
Northern Luri speaker as their particular speech variety.
4. After having received the contacts of Dr. Moshkriz from Dr.
Anonby (the message makes clear that Dr. Moshkriz had taught
at Iranshahr Uni but left it prior to May 2015), I
communicated with Dr. Moshkriz himself - it usually is
sufficient for a language committee member to vouchsafe for
the existence of a verifying scholar without revealing private
information about their sources.
[For information given under nos. 2 and 3 above, please refer
to the 2003 article "Update on Luri: how many languages?" in
JRAS, Series 3, 13(2), pages 171-197.]
My conclusion: The accusations against edits at lrc:wp cannot
be upheld from a linguistic point of view.
In the hope that this matter can be laid to rest now,
Oliver
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oliver Stegen, PhD
Linguistics Consultant, SIL Uganda-Tanzania
Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>_
_<http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen>http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen_
On 02-Feb-16 4:29 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:
Damn these spellcheckers I meant "patriotist
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism>".
I try to explain what I mean by giving you an example, Let's
say I build a script that is English but uses Arabic script
for second half of alphabet (N and afterwards) so my
first sentence would be "Damن تheزe سپellcheckeرز I meaنت
پaترiوتiست"
Anyone who knows both Persian and English can read this (with
some difficulties I guess) and they might even find it fun.
But I can't use this script in English Wikipedia because it's
original and not made for the language properly.
Same situation applies here, Lurish speakers who doesn't know
Kurdish language (which is virtually all of Lurish speakers)
can't get meaning of this language both because of original
script and vocabulary. I already showed it to several Lurish
speakers in broad demography (so I get to see speakers of all
variants of Lurish) no success at all.
Also I couldn't find any record of Dr. Moshkriz and it was
claimed he teaches at Iranshahr university (a small
university unlike Shiraz university which originally they
claimed he is teaching)
Please tell if you have trouble understanding me.
Best
On 02-Feb-16 10:39 AM, Oliver Stegen wrote:
ad 1 - I didn't make fun of anyone's English. I reacted to
the proposal to put Mogoeilor on moderation due to his
imperfect English. I actually defended all non-English
participants in this communication, asking not to restrict
their communication just because their English took a bit
more effort to understand.
ad 2 - I'm glad to hear of your support for lrc:wp.
ad 3 - I'm not familiar with the language situation in Iran
(which is why I contacted Dr. Erik Anonby). However, I know
something about orthography development (it's actually part
of my job as a linguistics consultant for minority languages
in East Africa). As long as there is no standard (and there
doesn't seem to be for Northern Luri), all scripts are
"homemade" in some sense of the word. And no script, whether
"pure" or "mixed" (both of which are acceptable in
orthography development), will be readable without teaching,
explaining and literacy activities.
I'll inform you of Dr. Anonby's reply once I've made contact.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 AM Amir Ladsgroup
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hey,
1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I
admit) is a little bit unethical. Don't you think? I
expected higher standards from this mailing list
2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I
definitely agree but not this case. I was actually asked
by the same person who started this discussion in fa.wp
who speaks Lurish. Is it okay for to make this Wiki again
with proper script? and I said, why not? that would be
awesome. I'm not like these crazy protagonists that think
the only language in Iran is Persian and other ones are
its dialects. I definitely in favor of re-launching this
wiki with proper scripts that are readable by Lur people.
Not a handful number of people.
3- I think originality of this script is implicitly
mentioned in email of the professor, quoting: "There are
some quirky orthographic things [...] off of words, but
many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade
scripts I’ve seen used for Luri."
My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained
to him what "originality" means in context of Wikipedia?
I must explain to you: This script is readable if the
person knows Kurdish because the extra letters came from
ckb language but Kurdish and Lurish are two different
languages with different speakers with different
ethnically backgrounds. please explain the situation
properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was educated
in Iran, can read this script or not.
Best
On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian
linguist with specialty in Iranian languages, and he
actually verified the contents of lrc:wp (then still
in the incubator). It was him who also provided
contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by
fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir Ladsgroup's
English much better than Mogoeilor's.]
I actually assume that this is a predominantly
political issue, and I would caution against allowing
fa:wp editors to interfere in lrc:wp issues -
especially when we already have independent
verification from a bona fide Canadian (i.e.
non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.
-------------------------------------------------------------
from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):
"I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than
Northern Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is
lexicon and phonology rather than whole texts.
But from looking at several articles, it looks
well-enough written to me. There are some quirky
orthographic things (like splitting the –e “is” /
direct object suffix) off of words, but many fewer
issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve
seen used for Luri.
The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which
is the central dialect but heavily influenced by
Persian and not typical of the language as a whole.
He could still use this dialect but with a bit of
accommodation to the language as a whole; for
example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t use Luri
verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is
used pretty much everywhere other than in
Khorramabad) rather than Khorramabadi mi- (which is
from Persian).
Two scholars who could verify the content
(naturalness, spelling, etc.) better than me are:
Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his
contact info)
Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until
recently; his email is [...])
Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in
touch with many other Luri scholars, too, to check
the articles."
On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:
It's very embarrassing for us if that is true.
Is it possible that the language used is not
Northern Lurish, but at least correct Central L.?
Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic
world who could help verify it?
I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not
in a real language.
Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>:
Hey,
Several days ago a discussion
<https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>
has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding
Northern[1] Luri wikipedia (lrc.wikimedia.org
<http://lrc.wikimedia.org>).
If I want to give you a summary of the
discussion. Mostly they say script is unreadable
(it's greatly different than Persian script) and
also they noted that vocabulary is tried to be
away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in a bad
way and thus it's un-understandable for people
who talk this variant of Luri (As it was
mentioned this Luri is being spoken in
Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of
Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki
to several people who speak Luri and in either
Khoramabad or Boroujerd. None of them could
understand most of content of this wiki. We also
provided a big table at the discussion in
Persian Wikipedia and compared several words in
the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern
Luri.
I found this
<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150> in
which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza
Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) is a university
professor with PhD and interestingly when we
asked about the script in that wiki
User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the
script is made up by a User:Mehramooz because he
has MSc in linguistics (edit
<https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654>)
. More interestingly in his blog he says he has
a MSc in translation studies (published about a
year and half ago
<http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16>) You can
verify the blog in his user page.
[1]: Also an interesting conversation
<https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C>
happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they
changed named of the wiki from Northern Luri to
Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in
English means "Centeral Luri"
Best
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