Thank you for all of your work, I didn't intend to compromise Dr. Mohskriz or any scholar in this case. I'm sorry it happened and I apologize for that. The biggest reason to me was inconsistency of claims by wiki users about academic credentials of User:Mehramooz (which is entirely different person judging by his name). And you were told that he has a PhD in linguistics but at the same time we were told he has a M.Sc. in translation studies. And that made me suspicious about credentials of every academic that they claimed. So I checked if he is teaching in Shiraz university and it was not correct either.
Best On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:02 PM Oliver Stegen <[email protected]> wrote: > I apologize, Amir, for having come across as aggressive towards you to the > point that you felt obliged to write, "you are pretty aggressive towards me > for an unknown reason". Please believe me that this is neither my attitude > nor my intention. > > What I reacted against was a) the example of Arabic/Latin script mixing, > and b) the questioning of Dr. Moshkriz' credentials (which seemed unfair to > me). I, like you, also have many other important things to do, hence I'm > rather direct in my communication (which is probably compounded by my being > German). > > I have received a reply from Dr. Erik Anonby who is an academic > knowledgeable about Luri languages. I had forwarded the entire > communication thread for him (after all, it's on the public langcom list), > and he expressed his disappointment about these developments. He agrees > with you that the current orthography is more difficult to read than the > previously used one, yet insists that the language expressed by it is good > Northern Luri and not another language. Hence, the problem is of an > orthographic and not a linguistic nature. > Dr. Anonby is happy to give orthography development guidance to the lrc:wp > editors, especially as he is currently publishing a book on orthography > development in Luri languages - which unfortunately will only be available > in six months time. I append the relevant parts of his message here below. > > In the hope that lrc:wp can be revised orthographically so that it will be > accessible to all N Luri readers without being shut down, and with best > wishes, > Oliver > > On 03-Feb-16 2:59 PM, Erik Anonby wrote: > > [...] The language written in the N Luri Wikipedia is indeed N Luri, but > the orthography is very different than one was there before, and less > readable. > > It’s true that there are some symbols and conventions which resemble > Kurdish (like the way that all short vowels are written, and hamze is > written on a small character at the beginning of words), but strictly > speaking the orthography is not based on Kurdish either. > > I have been working on orthographies of Iranian languages for some time > now, and my personal opinion is that for readability’s sake, it should be > as close to Persian as possible, but marking all linguistic differences > from Persian, including a lot of short vowel diacritics. I am in the > process of publishing a book on orthography of Bakhtiari, also in the Luri > group and immediately to the south, where we test different conventions and > weigh the options, and I hope that many of the principles there would be > useful to the contributors. However, it will likely be about six months > until it is released and I can’t share the manuscript right now. But it > will be freely available online once it is released. > > It’s a shame that the contributors maligned Dr Moshkriz based on the > university where he worked. (As is turns out, Shiraz closed its PhD program > in linguistics, so Moshkriz had to go elsewhere; I believe he is now based > at Shahid Beheshti University in Tehran, where he is doing a postdoc). I > don’t like to be part of such a negative online community. There are many > good scholars working at the smaller universities of Iran, and in fact many > good writers of Iran’s many languages that are not university scholars. We > are all working together to facilitate the use of Iran’s linguistics > heritage in written format, and we should help each other and consult each > other respectfully rather than tearing good-intentioned works down with > criticism directed at people (which is unfair), rather than ideas (which is > fair). > > Please communicate my disappointment, as written in these paragraphs, to > the people concerned. > > Also, I think that what people are calling “Central Luri” is indeed a type > of Northern Luri (or in fact the same language), which is spoken in > Luristan Province and some surrounding areas. But in my opinion, the issues > facing us here are primarily orthographic rather than linguistic. > > I am happy to communicate further about specific questions you might have. > [...] > > > On 03-Feb-16 2:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > Hoi, > Amir, I would be really happy to have an academic knowledgeable about Luri > to give his opinion. > > It is distressing to learn that a Wiki may not be read because of the > insistence of editors on a script that is not legible. I understand > Oliver's argument however I doubt that Luri is unique to Wikipedia. If it > is, we have a problem. How to deal with is unclear. When an academic that > you trust provides us with some proper explanations, we can digest it, ask > further questions if need be and then decide what to do. > > I would be obliged if you make the necessary contacts. > Thanks, > Gerard > > On 3 February 2016 at 11:20, Amir Ladsgroup <[email protected]> wrote: > > That's very fond of Gerard :) >> Regarding my English, You could defend it without judging about my >> English. >> Regarding the homemade script: A huge proportion (almost all) of Lur >> people went to school and are educated but most of them no matter where >> they originated can't read this wiki which means we have a big problem, >> It's like using sign language script for English and saying look! without >> learning you can't read. There is another script for this language which is >> readable by anyone. So it's easy to see argument of homemade scripts is >> definitely wrong. It's interesting to me that admins of those Wikis >> admitted on originality of this script several times and they also >> mentioned that User:Mehramooz made up this script. >> >> Regarding your analysis. Please also see this table >> <https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86/%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C_%DB%B5%DB%B5#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>. >> Biggest difference between the original script (script of the wiki right >> now) and the script being used by Lurish speakers is characters like "ڤ", >> "ئ", etc. For example "ئ" is already being used both in Persian and >> Arabic but not as often as this original script is using. Instead in the >> current script of Lurish (the proper script IMO) "ۆ" is being used >> (which is not a Persian character and it's solely a Kurdish one) and this >> character is more often. This example shows the proper script(TM) is not >> just Persian, in some cases it's closer to Kurdish. Or using "أ" instead >> of "ه" sometimes (and not all the times) to make the script more >> complicated, i.e. give it unnecessary precision which make it hard for >> ordinary readers. These examples are not easy to see for people who doesn't >> have a deep knowledge about Iranian languages. I can go on for a very >> long time and give you much more examples *if you want.* >> Last sentence refers to the thing I want to say here: I can convince you >> if you want to listen. I'm not trying to fulfill my nationalism, I believe >> in no borders. I'm only a wiki lover who tries to make Wikipedia readable >> for sever million more people. I received lots of complaints from Lur >> Wikipedians about this language, people who didn't know how to make a >> compliment to the language committee but they knew me as a cross-wiki >> contributor and they shared their concerns with me. I made some researches >> (by asking offline from Lur friends I knew which I'm happy to have a lot of >> them) and came to the same conclusion so I sent an email here. But you are >> pretty aggressive towards me for an unknown reason insisting on political >> part of Iranian languages. Frankly I have much more important things to do >> and I won't continue until langcom members think it's needed. >> >> Besy >> > On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:51 PM Oliver Stegen <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > Okay, I've had a look into this (I actually do read Arabic script). >>> >>> 1. No recently edited articles in lrc:wp which I looked at show *any* >>> mixture of scripts; they are completely based on Arabic script, with >>> language-specific modifications like necessary for any non-Arabic language, >>> e.g. گ (as also used in Persian but not original in Arabic script). The >>> example below is not comparable as it actually mixes two completely >>> different scripts, namely Arabic and Latin. Faulting special characters in >>> Northern Luri writing which deviate from Persian is like faulting Germanic >>> languages for using different grapheme combination for the same sound, e.g. >>> phonetic [u] is written oo in English, oe in Dutch, o in Norwegian and u in >>> German, or for faulting German to add special characters like ä, ö, ü and ß >>> instead of sticking to the original Latin alphabet. >>> 2. Lurish languages are closely related to both Kurdish and Persian >>> languages (with lexical cognate percentages between 60% and 85%), hence it >>> is no wonder that to a Persian speaker, Luri languages look like they had >>> been mixed with Kurdish. >>> 3. Even an individual language like Northern Luri constitutes a dialect >>> chain which means that any text written by a specific Northern Luri writer >>> may not be recognised by another Northern Luri speaker as their particular >>> speech variety. >>> 4. After having received the contacts of Dr. Moshkriz from Dr. Anonby >>> (the message makes clear that Dr. Moshkriz had taught at Iranshahr Uni but >>> left it prior to May 2015), I communicated with Dr. Moshkriz himself - it >>> usually is sufficient for a language committee member to vouchsafe for the >>> existence of a verifying scholar without revealing private information >>> about their sources. >>> >>> [For information given under nos. 2 and 3 above, please refer to the >>> 2003 article "Update on Luri: how many languages?" in JRAS, Series 3, >>> 13(2), pages 171-197.] >>> >>> My conclusion: The accusations against edits at lrc:wp cannot be upheld >>> from a linguistic point of view. >>> >>> In the hope that this matter can be laid to rest now, >>> Oliver >>> >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> Oliver Stegen, PhD >>> Linguistics Consultant, SIL Uganda-Tanzania >>> Email: *[email protected] <[email protected]> >>> <[email protected]>* >>> * >>> <http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen>http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen >>> <http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen> >>> <http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen>* >>> >> >>> >>> >>> On 02-Feb-16 4:29 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote: >>> >> Damn these spellcheckers I meant "patriotist >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism>". >>> I try to explain what I mean by giving you an example, Let's say I build >>> a script that is English but uses Arabic script for second half of alphabet >>> (N and afterwards) so my first sentence would be "Damن تheزe سپellcheckeرز >>> I meaنت پaترiوتiست" >>> Anyone who knows both Persian and English can read this (with >>> some difficulties I guess) and they might even find it fun. But I can't use >>> this script in English Wikipedia because it's original and not made for the >>> language properly. >>> Same situation applies here, Lurish speakers who doesn't know Kurdish >>> language (which is virtually all of Lurish speakers) can't get meaning of >>> this language both because of original script and vocabulary. I already >>> showed it to several Lurish speakers in broad demography (so I get to see >>> speakers of all variants of Lurish) no success at all. >>> >>> Also I couldn't find any record of Dr. Moshkriz and it was claimed he >>> teaches at Iranshahr university (a small university unlike Shiraz >>> university which originally they claimed he is teaching) >>> >>> Please tell if you have trouble understanding me. >>> Best >>> >>> On 02-Feb-16 10:39 AM, Oliver Stegen wrote: >>> >>> ad 1 - I didn't make fun of anyone's English. I reacted to the proposal >>> to put Mogoeilor on moderation due to his imperfect English. I actually >>> defended all non-English participants in this communication, asking not to >>> restrict their communication just because their English took a bit more >>> effort to understand. >>> ad 2 - I'm glad to hear of your support for lrc:wp. >>> ad 3 - I'm not familiar with the language situation in Iran (which is >>> why I contacted Dr. Erik Anonby). However, I know something about >>> orthography development (it's actually part of my job as a linguistics >>> consultant for minority languages in East Africa). As long as there is no >>> standard (and there doesn't seem to be for Northern Luri), all scripts are >>> "homemade" in some sense of the word. And no script, whether "pure" or >>> "mixed" (both of which are acceptable in orthography development), will be >>> readable without teaching, explaining and literacy activities. >>> >>> I'll inform you of Dr. Anonby's reply once I've made contact. >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 AM Amir Ladsgroup <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey, >>>> 1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I admit) is a little >>>> bit unethical. Don't you think? I expected higher standards from this >>>> mailing list >>>> 2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I definitely >>>> agree but not this case. I was actually asked by the same person who >>>> started this discussion in fa.wp who speaks Lurish. Is it okay for to make >>>> this Wiki again with proper script? and I said, why not? that would be >>>> awesome. I'm not like these crazy protagonists that think the only language >>>> in Iran is Persian and other ones are its dialects. I definitely in favor >>>> of re-launching this wiki with proper scripts that are readable by Lur >>>> people. Not a handful number of people. >>>> 3- I think originality of this script is implicitly mentioned in email >>>> of the professor, quoting: "There are some quirky orthographic things >>>> [...] off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade >>>> scripts I’ve seen used for Luri." >>>> My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained to him what >>>> "originality" means in context of Wikipedia? I must explain to you: This >>>> script is readable if the person knows Kurdish because the extra letters >>>> came from ckb language but Kurdish and Lurish are two different languages >>>> with different speakers with different ethnically backgrounds. please >>>> explain the situation properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was >>>> educated in Iran, can read this script or not. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist with >>>>> specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified the contents of >>>>> lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was him who also provided contact >>>>> for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now maligned by fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not >>>>> find Amir Ladsgroup's English much better than Mogoeilor's.] >>>>> I actually assume that this is a predominantly political issue, and I >>>>> would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to interfere in lrc:wp issues >>>>> - especially when we already have independent verification from a bona >>>>> fide >>>>> Canadian (i.e. non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi. >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015): >>>>> >>>>> "I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern Luri – >>>>> most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology rather than whole >>>>> texts. >>>>> But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough written to >>>>> me. There are some quirky orthographic things (like splitting the –e “is” >>>>> / >>>>> direct object suffix) off of words, but many fewer issues than a lot of >>>>> the >>>>> other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri. >>>>> The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which is the central >>>>> dialect but heavily influenced by Persian and not typical of the language >>>>> as a whole. He could still use this dialect but with a bit of >>>>> accommodation >>>>> to the language as a whole; for example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t >>>>> use Luri verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is used pretty >>>>> much everywhere other than in Khorramabad) rather than Khorramabadi mi- >>>>> (which is from Persian). >>>>> Two scholars who could verify the content (naturalness, spelling, >>>>> etc.) better than me are: >>>>> Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his contact info) >>>>> Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until recently; his email is >>>>> [...]) >>>>> Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in touch with many other >>>>> Luri scholars, too, to check the articles." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It's very embarrassing for us if that is true. >>>>> Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish, but at >>>>> least correct Central L.? >>>>> Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who could help >>>>> verify it? >>>>> >>>>> I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a real >>>>> language. >>>>> Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup" <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey, >>>>>> Several days ago a discussion >>>>>> <https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C> >>>>>> has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding Northern[1] Luri >>>>>> wikipedia ( >>>>>> lrc.wikimedia.org). >>>>>> If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly they say >>>>>> script is unreadable (it's greatly different than Persian script) and >>>>>> also >>>>>> they noted that vocabulary is tried to be away of Persian (and close to >>>>>> Kuridsh) in a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who talk >>>>>> this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri is being spoken in >>>>>> Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big cities of Iran). We can confirm that we >>>>>> showed this wiki to several people who speak Luri and in either >>>>>> Khoramabad >>>>>> or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of content of this wiki. >>>>>> We also provided a big table at the discussion in Persian Wikipedia and >>>>>> compared several words in the wiki to what they actually speak in >>>>>> Northern >>>>>> Luri. >>>>>> >>>>>> I found this >>>>>> <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150> in >>>>>> which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz (User:Mehramooz) >>>>>> is >>>>>> a university professor with PhD and interestingly when we asked about the >>>>>> script in that wiki User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script >>>>>> is >>>>>> made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in linguistics (edit >>>>>> <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654>) >>>>>> . More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in translation >>>>>> studies (published about a year and half ago >>>>>> <http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16>) You can verify the blog in >>>>>> his user page. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1]: Also an interesting conversation >>>>>> <https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C> >>>>>> happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed named of the wiki >>>>>> from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri "Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in >>>>>> English means "Centeral Luri" >>>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Langcom mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Langcom mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing > [email protected]https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom > > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >
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