Okay, I've had a look into this (I actually do read Arabic script).
1. No recently edited articles in lrc:wp which I looked at show *any*
mixture of scripts; they are completely based on Arabic script, with
language-specific modifications like necessary for any non-Arabic
language, e.g. گ (as also used in Persian but not original in Arabic
script). The example below is not comparable as it actually mixes two
completely different scripts, namely Arabic and Latin. Faulting special
characters in Northern Luri writing which deviate from Persian is like
faulting Germanic languages for using different grapheme combination for
the same sound, e.g. phonetic [u] is written oo in English, oe in Dutch,
o in Norwegian and u in German, or for faulting German to add special
characters like ä, ö, ü and ß instead of sticking to the original Latin
alphabet.
2. Lurish languages are closely related to both Kurdish and Persian
languages (with lexical cognate percentages between 60% and 85%), hence
it is no wonder that to a Persian speaker, Luri languages look like they
had been mixed with Kurdish.
3. Even an individual language like Northern Luri constitutes a dialect
chain which means that any text written by a specific Northern Luri
writer may not be recognised by another Northern Luri speaker as their
particular speech variety.
4. After having received the contacts of Dr. Moshkriz from Dr. Anonby
(the message makes clear that Dr. Moshkriz had taught at Iranshahr Uni
but left it prior to May 2015), I communicated with Dr. Moshkriz himself
- it usually is sufficient for a language committee member to vouchsafe
for the existence of a verifying scholar without revealing private
information about their sources.
[For information given under nos. 2 and 3 above, please refer to the
2003 article "Update on Luri: how many languages?" in JRAS, Series 3,
13(2), pages 171-197.]
My conclusion: The accusations against edits at lrc:wp cannot be upheld
from a linguistic point of view.
In the hope that this matter can be laid to rest now,
Oliver
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oliver Stegen, PhD
Linguistics Consultant, SIL Uganda-Tanzania
Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>_
_http://sil.academia.edu/OliverStegen_
On 02-Feb-16 4:29 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:
Damn these spellcheckers I meant "patriotist
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism>".
I try to explain what I mean by giving you an example, Let's say I
build a script that is English but uses Arabic script for second half
of alphabet (N and afterwards) so my first sentence would be "Damن
تheزe سپellcheckeرز I meaنت پaترiوتiست"
Anyone who knows both Persian and English can read this (with
some difficulties I guess) and they might even find it fun. But I
can't use this script in English Wikipedia because it's original and
not made for the language properly.
Same situation applies here, Lurish speakers who doesn't know Kurdish
language (which is virtually all of Lurish speakers) can't get meaning
of this language both because of original script and vocabulary. I
already showed it to several Lurish speakers in broad demography (so I
get to see speakers of all variants of Lurish) no success at all.
Also I couldn't find any record of Dr. Moshkriz and it was claimed he
teaches at Iranshahr university (a small university unlike Shiraz
university which originally they claimed he is teaching)
Please tell if you have trouble understanding me.
Best
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 AM Amir Ladsgroup <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hey,
1- Making fun of my English (which is not perfect I admit) is a
little bit unethical. Don't you think? I expected higher standards
from this mailing list
2- Situation of Iranian languages is a political issue, I
definitely agree but not this case. I was actually asked by the
same person who started this discussion in fa.wp who speaks
Lurish. Is it okay for to make this Wiki again with proper script?
and I said, why not? that would be awesome. I'm not like these
crazy protagonists that think the only language in Iran is Persian
and other ones are its dialects. I definitely in favor of
re-launching this wiki with proper scripts that are readable by
Lur people. Not a handful number of people.
3- I think originality of this script is implicitly mentioned in
email of the professor, quoting: "There are some quirky
orthographic things [...] off of words, but many fewer issues than
a lot of the other homemade scripts I’ve seen used for Luri."
My attention came to word "homemade". Have you explained to him
what "originality" means in context of Wikipedia? I must explain
to you: This script is readable if the person knows Kurdish
because the extra letters came from ckb language but Kurdish and
Lurish are two different languages with different speakers with
different ethnically backgrounds. please explain the situation
properly to him and ask if a normal Lur who was educated in Iran,
can read this script or not.
Best
On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:17 PM Oliver Stegen
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
In May 2015, I had contacted Erik Anonby, a Canadian linguist
with specialty in Iranian languages, and he actually verified
the contents of lrc:wp (then still in the incubator). It was
him who also provided contact for Mehdi Moshkriz who is now
maligned by fa:wp editors. [Btw, I do not find Amir
Ladsgroup's English much better than Mogoeilor's.]
I actually assume that this is a predominantly political
issue, and I would caution against allowing fa:wp editors to
interfere in lrc:wp issues - especially when we already have
independent verification from a bona fide Canadian (i.e.
non-Persian!) scholar. I append his reply fyi.
-------------------------------------------------------------
from Erik Anonby's reply (May 2015):
"I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern
Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology
rather than whole texts.
But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough
written to me. There are some quirky orthographic things (like
splitting the –e “is” / direct object suffix) off of words,
but many fewer issues than a lot of the other homemade scripts
I’ve seen used for Luri.
The author is also using Khorramabadi dialect, which is the
central dialect but heavily influenced by Persian and not
typical of the language as a whole. He could still use this
dialect but with a bit of accommodation to the language as a
whole; for example, it’s a bit of a shame he doesn’t use Luri
verb prefixes like present/continuous i- (which is used pretty
much everywhere other than in Khorramabad) rather than
Khorramabadi mi- (which is from Persian).
Two scholars who could verify the content (naturalness,
spelling, etc.) better than me are:
Sekandar Amanollahi (retired; I don’t have his contact info)
Mehdi Moshkriz (at Iranshahr University until recently; his
email is [...])
Mehdi is very nice and could probably put you in touch with
many other Luri scholars, too, to check the articles."
On 31-Jan-16 9:02 PM, MF-Warburg wrote:
It's very embarrassing for us if that is true.
Is it possible that the language used is not Northern Lurish,
but at least correct Central L.?
Do we have any other contacts in the linguistic world who
could help verify it?
I agree that the wiki ought to be closed if it's not in a
real language.
Am 30.01.2016 02:46 schrieb "Amir Ladsgroup"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>:
Hey,
Several days ago a discussion
<https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=16528438#.D9.88.DB.8C.DA.A9.DB.8C_.D9.84.D8.B1.DB.8C>
has been started in Persian Wikipedia regarding
Northern[1] Luri wikipedia (lrc.wikimedia.org
<http://lrc.wikimedia.org>).
If I want to give you a summary of the discussion. Mostly
they say script is unreadable (it's greatly different
than Persian script) and also they noted that vocabulary
is tried to be away of Persian (and close to Kuridsh) in
a bad way and thus it's un-understandable for people who
talk this variant of Luri (As it was mentioned this Luri
is being spoken in Khoramabbad and Broujerd, two big
cities of Iran). We can confirm that we showed this wiki
to several people who speak Luri and in either Khoramabad
or Boroujerd. None of them could understand most of
content of this wiki. We also provided a big table at the
discussion in Persian Wikipedia and compared several
words in the wiki to what they actually speak in Northern
Luri.
I found this
<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.langcom/150> in
which User:Mogoeilor told you that Gholamreza Mehramooz
(User:Mehramooz) is a university professor with PhD and
interestingly when we asked about the script in that wiki
User:Mogoeilor (the same person) told us the script is
made up by a User:Mehramooz because he has MSc in
linguistics (edit
<https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&diff=prev&oldid=26654>)
. More interestingly in his blog he says he has a MSc in
translation studies (published about a year and half ago
<http://www.zistrah.blogfa.com/post/16>) You can verify
the blog in his user page.
[1]: Also an interesting conversation
<https://lrc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DA%A4%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%D8%A6%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%86%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%AD%D9%88%D9%99%D9%86%DB%95/%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1_%DA%A4%D8%A7_%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%99%D8%B1&oldid=34935#.D9.84.DB.8A.D8.B1.DB.8C_.D8.B4.D9.88.D9.85.D8.A7.D9.84.DB.8C>
happened in this wiki in Persian. It seems they changed
named of the wiki from Northern Luri to Minjaii Luri
"Minjaii" is a word in Luri that in English means
"Centeral Luri"
Best
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