+1 to the Windows/.NET fanboy club. Like David indicated in his message, I too am very experienced in a wide degree of technologies and programming languages. I have just as many Linux servers running at home as I do Win2003 servers. But my preference for end user software is software that runs on Windows, all for the same reasons David mentions.
I hope you all will still be my friend. This is my first post to the group after lurking for some time. Bottom line is, the core meat of the things discussed here are centered on theory, design, and practice, but I've found to be without affinity to any particular platform, at least most of the time. And that is the way it should be. By the way, to the person looking for a journaling tool on Windows, I don't know if it was mentioned or not but I have come to rely on OneNote. I'm using the Beta 2 version of OneNote 2007 since it has many features beyond the 1.0 release that I find useful. I love it because I can easily take screen clippings and copy from web pages used in my personal study. I also use it at church on my tablet PC when I'm taking notes. I sometimes (shhh... don't tell anyone this) will use the built in microphone in my tablet to record parts of lessons. With Beta 2 of OneNote 2007, those recordings are actually searchable and in-sync with my text notes. Finally, since I'm sounding like a commercial here, I also use it on my Pocket PC (yes, Windows again) to include short notes and photographs taken with my Pocket PC phone, to include in my notes. Its love. Enjoy! -AdamC -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wagner Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 5:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Linux and Windows--How wide the divide Very well spoken Steve. You have hit the nail on the head and then some. I have often felt like I am forced into the outer fringes of the geek club because of my love and interest of programming in Windows. I think that there is a vast generalization among hardcore Linux users that anyone who prefers Windows for any reason is somehow dumb or at the very least underneath them. I am by no means stupid. I am very proficient with Linux due to my extensive curiosity with all things technical. I have spent and still do spend much of my time trying out new advances in the Linux world and trying to get it all working (which I must admit, from a technical stand point is rather rare with the exception of some very mature projects.). However, I also enjoy doing the same with Windows, only with Windows I have the unique opportunity to scale my ideas towards a majority of computer users. All in all I think the bickering between the users of both worlds is pointless. They both have important things to add to the advancement of CS. They both have strengths and weakness' and they are both useful in their respective environments. Now perhaps this is a bit picky but I would love to be able to respond and participate in this mailing list within my current level of experience and interests without feeling as though my ideas will be put down by the Linux Nazis (not literal Nazi's, you know what I mean). I monitor every message sent from this list however I have not responded to several discussions that I found quite interesting for this very reason. I got the impression very early on that my perspective on building the kingdom was somehow less valid because I wanted to do it with .NET. I guess that makes my $1.09 to escalate things a bit. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven H. McCown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'LDS Open Source Software'" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: RE: [Ldsoss] Linux and Windows--How wide the divide > Okay, let's leave the demeaning digs aside for a minute...then you can go > back to your fun... :-) > > In an odd sort of way, you have hit on one of the benefits of Windows and > some characteristics of its users. > > Linux users are mainly developers and tinkerers. For this group, > computing > *is the experience*. This group likes to look at new technology, upgrade > to > better versions, eliminate coding limitations, and solve world hunger via > better computing (e.g., MIT's $100 laptop), etc. Linux users, typically, > enjoy figuring out why the computer isn't working and then have fun fixing > it. That's why open source is more popular in the Linux world -- profits > are secondary to the 'real cool stuff', which is computing. > > In contrast, Windows users are typically people who use a computer to > solve > a different type of problem. Windows is geared towards a group of people > who use computers simply as a means to and end. Windows users, typically, > want the letter written, the music downloaded, the database kept, to surf > the net, e-mail sent, etc. The average Windows user only wants to use a > computer for word processing, spreadsheets, e-mail, IM, web browsing, > music, > and stuff like that. (With all it's Linux experience, Google's figured > out > the real market.) For that group, the computer is the tool and *not* the > subject of interest. > > The difference between the typical users of Linux and Windows is very > similar to the technological interest difference between corporate > officers > and engineers. Please ignore status rankings for the sake of this > analogy. > Corporate officers, generally, don't have time or interest in technology. > If their computer breaks, they call corporate support and say, "My > computer > broke. No, I don't know what's wrong, just come fix it." Conversely, > most > engineers will try to troubleshoot the problem, read a newsgroup, download > a > 'fix', and try to solve the problem. A Linux user would say, "Why call > tech > support, you have the source code, you should be able to fix your own > computer." A windows user will say, "I don't have time or interest in > this." In a similar sense, most of us have developed this attitude > towards > cars. We may know how to fix them, but can't afford spending time to do > so > -- especially during the family vacation. On vacation, our task is > getting > the family to Yellowstone, not in 'chipping' the engine with a part we > bought in Las Vegas. Right? > > Years ago, I was using an old version of Red Hat. I had a certain > research > task that had captured our VP's attention. That brought my timeline so > near > term that I was struggling to get all the code working. It came down to a > bug somewhere in the video driver stack. I spent a lot of time > researching > the problem and found that I had to download a new package -- written by > some student, somewhere. When I compiled and installed that, I found that > it had several undocumented dependencies. I download, compiled, and > installed those and found that they had some undocumented dependencies. I > was in a hurry and found myself going down a seemingly never ending patch > path. Given my timeline, I could not enjoy 'solving the computing > problem' > as I had to solve the original problem. In that instance, I just wanted > the > computer to work -- so I could work on achieving my original goal. > > Was I a "sleep-deprived, disinterested user" who had no prior planning, > and > was programming on a whim? Certainly not. Nevertheless, I didn't want to > solve computer problems and would get chastised for doing so. I just > wanted > the darn thing to work ... so that I could. > > This is a user-OS difference that I have observed over the years. Another > is that most end-users are Windows users. Windows users would be willing > to > switch to Linux for reasons of cost, but they don't want to (or can't) > become computer tinkerers. Linux has some really, really outstanding > features, but despite it's looking more and more like Windows, is not > ready > to meet the demands of that market segment. Will it ever? I don't know, > Linux is developed by engineers for engineers and so it continues making > advances in that direction. Window's emphasis is on the user > experience -- > sometimes at the expense of the underlying systems, but that's a different > discussion. > > The other day, someone asked about a journaling application that could run > on Windows. Given that the individual is on this list, I gather that they > are fairly technical, however it seemed like they wanted a turnkey > solution > and not a new maintenance task. The answers ranged from installing web > servers and interpreters like python (which I've found very useful in > computer security, btw), to managing Wiki variants. Those are all really > good answers. Let me repeat that, those are all really good answers. > However, they missed the mark in that they were providing an engineering > solution to an end-user requirement. I don't know exactly which answer > met > the requirement. However the one that seemed to fit was the one that said > to use notepad and MS Word. Why? Not because it was necessarily the best > solution, but because it was likely the best one for an end user. > Remember, > Windows users are not dumb, they just have a different goal in mind -- and > the computer is just a means to their end. > > The goal of this group is some variation of building software to benefit > all > mankind. This is an admirable goal. However, for those solutions to be > generally useful by the general population, they have to keep in mind > those > users' goals. For some graphics analysis tasks, I use an open source tool > called 'Virtual Dub', which can do some amazing things. I also use GIMP, > have read some of its source code, and don't mind installing GTK. > However, > for the general user's graphics tasks, they use MS Paint, Internet > Explorer, > or even PhotoShop. The general user doesn't care what happens as long as > the picture displays. > > So, how wide is the chasm between Linux users and Windows users? In some > ways, it's pretty big. It's not an intellectual divide, but rather an > interest level or goal oriented divide. Just keep in mind your target > audience. For engineers or server-side stuff, Perl is great. For general > users, they need InstallShield to guide them through the installation > process. > > Those differences are not bad ones -- we just need to understand them. If > we want to build applications that the general church (and beyond) will > use, > then they need to be geared towards the general user's requirements. The > reality that we must keep in mind is that the average genealogy computer > user is retired (and not a retired engineer), that the average Scout > Master > is whomever likes to camp and can tolerate teenagers, the average Ward > Clerk > is likely an accountant, and the average Bishop is an organizer/manager. > While there are many engineers and scientists that fill those callings, I > don't believe that they make up the majority. Even for engineers, how > many > financial clerks want to be doing system upgrades on Sunday after church > rather than 'just getting it done' and going home? On Fast Sunday? > > Sometimes applications just need to get the job done rather than satisfy > our > CS curiosity in order to meet users' needs. That can be really difficult > for a programmer to want to do.... > > Well, that's my $1.02... > > Steve > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Haws > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 1:36 PM > To: LDS Open Source Software > Subject: [Ldsoss] Linux and Windows--How wide the divide > > The recent discussion about Troop/Youth advancement tracking and this > question about journal writing software for Windows have startlingly > refreshed my appreciation that the Linux masses and the Windows masses > are truly on different planets. > > I don't think that the Linux masses truly appreciate, or perhaps even > understand, the extent to which Windows users are conditioned to use > the computer without mind focus. Windows users really and truly > expect as a birthright that we should be able to successfully use our > computers to do amazing things even while our brains are half asleep > and we are focused on other things. > > In my programming activities (in the Windows realm), I have slowly > come to understand and accept that my programs must be usable: > > -After a 3-year hiatus > -On half my brain (in sleep-deprived, disinterested mode) > -With no planning > -On a fleeting whim > > Perl, Apache, and Mediawiki are wonderful. But you have to be honest > in asking yourself, "Could I get this going in Windows if I were > nearly apathetic, nearly focusless, and nearly brain dead?" This is > no disrespect for any user; people are busy and have other interests > and responsibilities. Even the Java Runtime Environment is pushing > the limit, I'm afraid. > > I'm not sure who needs to change. Is focusless operation an > entitlement for users, or is user focus an entitlement for authors? > But I know the divide is wider than our discussions seem to > acknowledge. > > -- > Tom Haws 480-201-5476 > OpenOffice.org v. MS Office: Kids love OOo. Wife didn't notice I > switched. Get OOo free. > "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes > that I am prepared to kill for" Gandhi > _______________________________________________ > Ldsoss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss > > _______________________________________________ > Ldsoss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss _______________________________________________ Ldsoss mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss _______________________________________________ Ldsoss mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
