On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Marjanw <pr002...@proximus.be> wrote: > Hi all, > > I think this discussion demonstrates there are different types of users. > We simply have to admit that! > > Open Source software is all about freedom. > Freedom is an important drive for many of us to use Open Source software. > Restricting freedom will make users unhappy. > In the end they will vote by their feet. > > So I think the only satisfactory solution will be to offer our users the > freedom to choose. > If we have users, which feel they need some form of editing, deleting/redoing > a transaction, > and this is technically possible, we should not restrict them from doing that. > > Secondly I will advocate simple solutions. > Adding a void flag to transactions to manipulate reports sounds opaque, > construed. > If you really don't want transactions to show up, the most straightforward > solution is: > they are simply not there! > > Just my two cents. > > Regards, > > Marjan
Your proposal would see to have merit but for one thing. In the USA and Canada if your accounting does not follow GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Practice) rules - - - well you are asking to get audited and that is a painful and often expensive 'feature' - - - so I for one would be very very very reluctant to use software that didn't follow GAAP principles. What could perhaps be done is an add on for those who want it but this (say for a void button) would also add the tag at the software base level (at least as a note for the general ledger AND in any report) that the software has been modified to NOT follow GAAP rules. Regards Dee > > ----------------------------------------- > On 2016-05-19 20:43, Peeter Pärtel wrote: >> I just reminded one more scenario where I need to change invoices.... >> >> We do quite some real estate accounting and rent invoices monthly. >> >> I have developed a LibreOffice speadsheet with formulas etc. Then I create >> from there a csv file >> which I use with iMacro ( >> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/imacros-for-firefox/ ) to >> enter data into LedgerSMB. Very effective :-) >> >> I have developed many iMacro scripts which speeds up data entry into >> LedgerSMB from accordingly >> prepared csv files. >> >> In the past I have also done thousands of membership invoices for some NGOs. >> >> All these have nothing to do with inventory - services only. So changing >> those invoices is not a >> problem from accounting perspective. >> >> So as most information comes through this automatization then every time I >> have some tweaks... >> someone moved out middle of month, someone paid late the last invoice, so >> some interest needs to be >> added etc. We deal with those special cases manually after invoices have >> already created in LedgerSMB. >> >> After that I run another iMacro to send out all invoices. >> >> And still just today I found some mistakes in few invoices because of >> special situation... rent was >> raised but in speadsheet was still old one... so client got an invoice with >> wrong rent... but now I >> just corrected it and send out it again. >> >> I hope You get the picture :-) Life happens. >> >> Peeter Pärtel >> >> >> >> >> 2016-05-19 13:53 GMT+03:00 Raido Kurel <ra...@klots.eu >> <mailto:ra...@klots.eu>>: >> >> Thanks Peeter! >> >> My reasons exactly (expect the 1000 eur reporting, as in my ledgersmb >> are only few very small >> companies). I have read other request to enable documents editing and >> negative answers. So I >> accepted, that it can not be done and decided to try sql-ledger again. >> But if in the future >> there would be possibility to hide revoked transactions I start to >> accept the possibility to >> stay using ledgersmb 1.2 until 1.4 has this functionality. >> >> Another problem came to my mind. There would be two types of voiding in >> 1.4 then: >> 1. Ones which is caused because of mistakes. Which are normally repaired >> by "repost" in 1.2. >> 2. Ones which must always be visible in reports (which are also in 1.2. >> voided using voiding >> transaction). >> >> 1. is used for accountant mistakes, mind changes and so on and 2. is >> used for dovuments which >> can not in principle changed without voiding. >> >> The normal reports should then show only type 2 voiding and full >> reporting with all the mistakes >> should be behind some administrator or auditing menu. >> Would that be reasonable? >> >> Raido >> >> On 05/19/2016 12:32 PM, Peeter Pärtel wrote: >>> Hi everyone... >>> >>> So I explain why we need to change invoices... there are many reasons... >>> >>> Let's start from big one: >>> Accountants are perfectionist. I have seen many very stressed out >>> accountants, almost burned >>> out, who use software where they can't make changes. Every mistake is >>> visible and reminds >>> itself to them and also their clients / bosses, who ask about those >>> mistakes as they see these >>> as well. >>> >>> When we moved over to first SQL-Ledger and then LedgerSMB, this was the >>> big relief and >>> accountants are much more relaxed and happy persons because they know >>> it's ok to make mistakes >>> and fix them. And the best... nobody knows that there even was a >>> mistake. >>> >>> Practical reasons: >>> Clients change their minds about order size, products, ask for >>> additional discounts, want >>> different wording for services etc etc. Today I just change the invoice >>> according to their >>> wiches and I do it in LedgerSMB. Then resend. If this would not be >>> possible I would have to >>> use Word or LibreOffice and remake the invoice there as client wants >>> one clear invoice. And >>> yes, clients even want to change invoice receiving company after they >>> have paid it (as private >>> person). >>> >>> Another big one: >>> I have developed a script for 1.2 version which generates for me .csv >>> file which I upload to >>> Estonian Tax Authorites. It includes invoice information both sales and >>> purchases with >>> partners where we have had more than 1000 eur worth of invoicing in a >>> given month. It must >>> include also credit invoices, so total might be less than 1000. There >>> are some other rules to >>> follow as well. It means I cannot have random back and forth invoicing >>> in the system or this >>> report would include them which by the end of day means I would need to >>> do this report >>> manually or check it manually line by line as I cannot upload >>> information about invoices which >>> actually didn't happen. Estonian Tax Authorites check that both parties >>> declare the same >>> information and it would not match if I have there some voided invoices >>> etc. >>> >>> And if all this changing means that inventory is messed up in the end, >>> so be it... so far I >>> have made once a year on 31st of December a correction into ledger >>> based on the inventory >>> report value and the difference in balance sheet. So it matches at this >>> point. >>> >>> Also from regulatory point of view... we are talking about small / >>> medium companies... trust >>> level between people is very high, so we are not afraid of fraud by >>> employees. Also I have >>> nightly backups and few times a year when somebody really messes up >>> something I restore the >>> old copy and compare... and find the mistake. >>> From Estonian Tax Authorities perspective... they have never asked for >>> audit log or something >>> like that. Just the list of invoices which include VAT, or whats inside >>> cash account. That's >>> pretty much it. Banks want balance sheets and income statements. Nobody >>> really cares how many >>> mistakes there were or how they got corrected. >>> >>> I understand this might not be the case in all countries, but we need a >>> stress free working >>> environment which is flexible and allows correction of everything as >>> needed. >>> >>> Before using SQL-Ledger / LedgerSMB I used HansaWorld and back then >>> there was no way to >>> correct changes... only way was to make a text backup copy and then >>> search from there where >>> the mistake is and correct and then reimport the backup copy... with >>> bigger database it toke >>> like a day or more... and I had to do it couple of times. I had enough, >>> that's why we changed. >>> Nowadays it's much easier with HansaWorld as well because I can give >>> changing rights to a >>> specific user who can open old documents, change them and close them. >>> Yes this person needs to >>> know what he or she is doing and correct manually some other things as >>> well, so everything >>> balances but once You learn what needs to be done, it's doable. >>> >>> I really hope this helps the developers and You will develope some >>> userfriendly way to make >>> changes into existing documents, so I can finally upgrade from 1.2 to a >>> newer version. >>> >>> All the Best, >>> >>> Peeter Pärtel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2016-05-18 18:38 GMT+03:00 Erik Huelsmann <ehu...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:ehu...@gmail.com>>: >>> >>> Hi Peeter, >>> >>> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 4:51 PM, Peeter Pärtel <pee...@sigma.ee >>> <mailto:pee...@sigma.ee>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Raido, >>> >>> I'm in progress on translating LedgerSMB to Estonian. As I have >>> other commitments >>> right now, it's on pause. >>> >>> >>> Wel, maybe the two of you can get the translation done together? If >>> one knows some of the >>> terms and the other has some time to go over the strings, that >>> might make it a lighter >>> effort for both? >>> >>> First I just added to 1.4 translation all I have used for 1.2 >>> translation. There is a >>> lot of new things in 1.4 and I don't have a working 1.4 right >>> now. >>> >>> *For others: Did I understand correctly that in 1.3 and 1.4 and >>> 1.5 I cannot change >>> documents once they are saved? If it is so, it seems I'm stuck >>> with 1.2, as this is a >>> must have functionality for us.* >>> >>> >>> Can you explain your workflow and the reason that this is the case? >>> I'm trying to >>> understand the reasons why people would not be able to migrate to >>> the new versions. One >>> reason is that the newer versions are technically a *lot* more >>> sound than 1.2 and before. >>> If nobody is going to use that effort, it's simply been a waste of >>> time (not your fault!). >>> >>> As you can understand, it's pretty important to us to understand >>> why you think you can't >>> do without editing of transactions. In what situations do you >>> normally edit transactions? >>> How often is that (as compared to how often you enter transactions, >>> of course!) (I stepped >>> in at 1.3.0 and make my share of mistakes, but have worked without >>> transaction editing >>> from day one -- and survived :-) so I need a bit of help here). >>> >>> Thanks for taking the time to help us improve the software and make >>> it useable for you! >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bye, >>> >>> Erik. >>> >>> http://efficito.com <http://efficito.com/> -- Hosted accounting and >>> ERP. >>> Robust and Flexible. No vendor lock-in. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Mobile security can be enabling, not merely restricting. Employees >>> who >>> bring their own devices (BYOD) to work are irked by the imposition >>> of MDM >>> restrictions. Mobile Device Manager Plus allows you to control only >>> the >>> apps on BYO-devices by containerizing them, leaving personal data >>> untouched! >>> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/304595813;131938128;j >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ledger-smb-users mailing list >>> Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>> <mailto:Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ledger-smb-users >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Mobile security can be enabling, not merely restricting. Employees who >>> bring their own devices (BYOD) to work are irked by the imposition of >>> MDM >>> restrictions. Mobile Device Manager Plus allows you to control only the >>> apps on BYO-devices by containerizing them, leaving personal data >>> untouched! >>> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/304595813;131938128;j >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ledger-smb-users mailing list >>> Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>> <mailto:Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ledger-smb-users >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Mobile security can be enabling, not merely restricting. Employees who >> bring their own devices (BYOD) to work are irked by the imposition of MDM >> restrictions. Mobile Device Manager Plus allows you to control only the >> apps on BYO-devices by containerizing them, leaving personal data >> untouched! >> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/304595813;131938128;j >> _______________________________________________ >> Ledger-smb-users mailing list >> Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> <mailto:Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ledger-smb-users >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Mobile security can be enabling, not merely restricting. Employees who >> bring their own devices (BYOD) to work are irked by the imposition of MDM >> restrictions. Mobile Device Manager Plus allows you to control only the >> apps on BYO-devices by containerizing them, leaving personal data untouched! >> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/304595813;131938128;j >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ledger-smb-users mailing list >> Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ledger-smb-users >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mobile security can be enabling, not merely restricting. Employees who > bring their own devices (BYOD) to work are irked by the imposition of MDM > restrictions. Mobile Device Manager Plus allows you to control only the > apps on BYO-devices by containerizing them, leaving personal data untouched! > https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/304595813;131938128;j > _______________________________________________ > Ledger-smb-users mailing list > Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ledger-smb-users ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mobile security can be enabling, not merely restricting. Employees who bring their own devices (BYOD) to work are irked by the imposition of MDM restrictions. Mobile Device Manager Plus allows you to control only the apps on BYO-devices by containerizing them, leaving personal data untouched! https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/304595813;131938128;j _______________________________________________ Ledger-smb-users mailing list Ledger-smb-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ledger-smb-users
