If I understand what you are saying I think you've got it a wee bit mixed up...
-----Original Message----- From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu [mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Petter Ericson Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 12:29 AM To: liberationtech Subject: Re: [liberationtech] For everyone and their grad students: Fake, pay-to-publish journals & conferences Gettings things published (as in, readable by the public) is no longer a problem, and journals should, frankly, not concern themselves with this any more. [MG>] but this is precisely what journals do... i.e. they "publish" (after selecting what to "publish* However, they still need to pick-and-choose among the myriads of published works to get a high-quality and on-topic selection of articles, which they would then endorse, rather than publish. [MG>] they pick and choose among the myriad of non-"published"* works to get....etc.etc. The problem is how to make money and repute flow properly through this system, without getting bad side effects (i.e. no publishing for poor people/institutions, no access to what endorsements were made for poor people/institutions, every journal turns (even more) into an echo chamber etc. etc.). [MG>] okay... That, at least, is my understanding of it. [MG>] er... and mine M Best /P [MG>] *"publishing" of course means something different post-Internet... I think what it means is putting something into a context which authenticates the process of "publication" i.e. it is "published" because we/they/someone says that it is being "published"... But maybe in the end we are saying the same thing but using words in a slightly different way. On 08 April, 2013 - michael gurstein wrote: > Perhaps you could explain what you mean here as your comment seems rather a > non sequitur. > > M > > -----Original Message----- > From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu > [mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Karl > Fogel > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:30 PM > To: liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu > Subject: Re: [liberationtech] For everyone and their grad students: > Fake, pay-to-publish journals & conferences > > If we'd all stop using the verb "publish" when we really mean "endorse", much > conversation on this topic would be clearer. > > (Not aimed at anyone here, by the way; just a general observation :-) > .) > > -Karl > > Richard Brooks <r...@acm.org> writes: > >Part of the problem is the use of publications to drive academic > >"retention, tenure, promotion." > >Publications should be vetted by a set of peers that only allow > >publication of quality goods. The journals are supposed to be the > >gate-keepers and enforcers of quality. This means that the people > >trying to publish have an incentive to publish as much as they can. > > > >Having the authors pay gives the supposed gatekeepers an economic > >incentive to publish more and lower quality. > >If costs are not paid by the subscribers (who should in principle > >only pay for quality goods) then it is hard to find a model that is > >going to keep the bar high enough. > > > >Professional societies (IEEE, ACM, etc.) can probably maintain > >quality in this scenario. > >But that decreases the number of journals and the amount of available > >info... > > > >On 04/08/2013 04:19 PM, michael gurstein wrote: > >> I'm wondering whether some global equivalent of the copyright > >> collection societies > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_collective might not work > >> although they would need to be updated to reflect current issues > >> around CC and related licensing… Richer institutionscould pay in > >> for access to Open Access journals perhaps on a pay per usage basis > >> and given a relatively modest cost structure for OA journals this > >> might be sufficient to cover operating costs on a Robin Hood basis for > >> poorer and LDC libraries. …just a thought. > >> > >> > >> > >> M > >> > >> > >> > >> *From:*liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu > >> [mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu] *On Behalf Of > >> *LISTS > >> *Sent:* Monday, April 08, 2013 10:58 AM > >> *To:* liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu > >> *Subject:* Re: [liberationtech] For everyone and their grad students: > >> Fake, pay-to-publish journals & conferences > >> > >> > >> > >> Indeed, this would be a problem. However, it's already a problem, > >> which is to say that poorer universities cannot afford > >> subscriptions to EBSCO and whatnot to begin with, and thus their > >> faculty have trouble keeping up with research in comparison to > >> those at richer schools. What I'm suggesting here could at least > >> alleviate this problem, because richer schools would subsidize /access/ to > >> research. > >> > >> Moreover, I'm imagining that the cost of pay-to-publish would be > >> far lower than for-profit schemes like T&F and Elsevier, thus > >> enabling poorer school's libraries to save money and actually > >> increase their faculty's ability to do research (assuming that's their > >> mission). > >> However, I don't have numbers on this, so I could be wrong. > >> > >> - Rob Gehl > >> > >> On 04/08/2013 11:52 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >> > >> The problem with this is that faculty from wealthier universities will > >> have much more capability to publish than faculty from less wealthy > >> universities. And those who can get their work supported by those with > >> money have an upper hand of getting more information out than those who do > >> not have their work supported. There is already enough of this in grants > >> perhaps. Maybe we could envision something like low cost subscriptions > >> so that individuals or universities could pay a small fee to journals they > >> use a lot. This works well on a number of political blogs. > >> > >> > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> > >> From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu > >> <mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu> > >> [liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu > >> <mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu>] on behalf of > >> LISTS [li...@robertwgehl.org <mailto:li...@robertwgehl.org>] > >> > >> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 1:45 PM > >> > >> To: liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu > >> <mailto:liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu> > >> > >> Subject: Re: [liberationtech] For everyone and their grad > >> students: Fake, pay-to-publish journals & conferences > >> > >> > >> > >> Or, potentially, university libraries could shift from buying > >> > >> subscriptions to paying for their university faculty's publication > >> fees. > >> > >> If the ultimate product is an open access publication, then the > >> issue > >> > >> isn't paying for access, but rather paying to produce the public good. > >> > >> > >> > >> - Rob Gehl > >> > >> > >> > >> On 04/08/2013 11:42 AM, michael gurstein wrote: > >> > >> Publishing may be dirt cheap but any systematic/formal e.g. > >> academic > >> > >> publishing isn't free... So the problem is that while there > >> is a necessary > >> > >> and valuable shift from commercial publishing (and > >> outrageous > >> profiteering) > >> > >> to open access online publishing there really aren't any > >> good business > >> > >> models yet to cover the (much less but not totally trivial) > >> costs of the new > >> > >> forms of academic publishing. > >> > >> > >> > >> If for whatever reason (and there are lots including the > >> issues pointed to > >> > >> here) one doesn't want to go to a pay for play model that > >> leaves > >> > >> advertising(???) or donations (???) or... > >> > >> > >> > >> M > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> > >> From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu > >> <mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu> > >> > >> [mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On > >> Behalf Of Richard > >> > >> Brooks > >> > >> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:34 AM > >> > >> To: liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu > >> <mailto:liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu> > >> > >> Subject: Re: [liberationtech] For everyone and their grad > >> students: Fake, > >> > >> pay-to-publish journals & conferences > >> > >> > >> > >> It's not curious. It is accurate. As the funding model > >> moved from > >> > >> subscribers paying for access to authors paying for > >> publication, the > >> > >> financial incentives changed as well. The loosening of > >> standards is an > >> > >> obvious consequence of this decision. > >> > >> > >> > >> The question of how best to publish quality academic > >> information is > >> > >> non-trivial. Like the question of where to get quality > >> current affairs > >> > >> information. It will take a while for things to adjust to > >> the ability of the > >> > >> Internet to make publishing dirt-cheap. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 04/08/2013 12:19 PM, James Losey wrote: > >> > >> I think it's curious how this article frames the > >> journals as "open > >> > >> access" rather than a more appropriate "pay to play" > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Yosem Companys > >> <compa...@stanford.edu <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> > >> > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu>> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Nathaniel Poor <natp...@gmail.com > >> <mailto:natp...@gmail.com> > >> > >> <mailto:natp...@gmail.com> <mailto:natp...@gmail.com>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/health/for-scientists-an-explodin > >> g- > >> w > >> > >> orld-of-pseudo-academia.html > >> > >> > >> > >> "The scientists who were recruited to appear at a > >> conference called > >> > >> Entomology-2013 thought they had been selected to > >> make a presentation > >> > >> to the leading professional association of > >> scientists who study > >> > >> insects. But they found out the hard way that they were > >> wrong...." > >> > >> > >> > >> This has been a problem for a while, but now it's > >> big enough to be a > >> > >> newspaper story. > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> > >> Nathaniel Poor, Ph.D. > >> > >> http://natpoor.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> https://sites.google.com/site/natpoor/ > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or > >> change password > >> > >> by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> > >> > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> or changing your settings at > >> > >> > >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or > >> change password by > >> > >> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> or changing your settings > >> > >> at > >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> =================== > >> > >> R. R. Brooks > >> > >> > >> > >> Associate Professor > >> > >> Holcombe Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering > >> Clemson > >> > >> University > >> > >> > >> > >> 313-C Riggs Hall > >> > >> PO Box 340915 > >> > >> Clemson, SC 29634-0915 > >> > >> USA > >> > >> > >> > >> Tel. 864-656-0920 > >> > >> Fax. 864-656-5910 > >> > >> email: r...@acm.org <mailto:r...@acm.org> > >> > >> web: http://www.clemson.edu/~rrb > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change > >> password by > >> > >> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> or changing your settings at > >> > >> > >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change > >> password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> or changing your settings at > >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change > >> password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> or changing your settings at > >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change > >> password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu > >> <mailto:compa...@stanford.edu> or changing your settings at > >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password > >> by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your > >> settings at > >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > >> > -- > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings > at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > > -- > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings > at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Petter Ericson (pett...@acc.umu.se) -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
