This is corect Ed. Like gravity, natural rights have always existed, and merely needed to be discovered.
--- In [email protected], "Edward J. Williamson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Natural laws exist independently of consciousness. The fact that > existence exists independently of any conscious thought is axiomatic. > Whether or not man existed has no bearing on gravity or any other > immutable natural/scientific law. Man may ascribe names and labels, > and study the existence and applications of those laws, but they > exist independently of our conscious existence. > > --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > < Gravity IS a natural law and you just stated that you could > measure > > it. > > > > > Nothing can be really measured. All measurements are relative. > Gravity is not a natural law. When you leave the earth, there is no > gravity, is there? > > Gravity is created by mass of an object affecting the space time > fabric. Without the object, there would be no gravity. Without a man > peesent, there would be no laws. > > Anna > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 5:30 PM > > Subject: objective vs subjective Re: [Libertarian] Re: > Socialism/Capitalism of the Author > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Deus Ex Machina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Ok, so are you denying that we have sole dominion over our > own lives > > > > and body (including the organisms within them)? This means > you're > > > > saying that someone else can have more of a claim on your > body than > > > > you do. This is the exact opposite of the premise of > libertarianism. > > > > > > > > Either that or you are denying that natural law exists. > Which is > > it? > > > > > > both. the current system already doesnt give you rights to your > own dna. > > > > > > Oh, so you're saying you're not a libertarian. That's all you > had to > > say. Anyone that denies that we own our own DNA, and that we have > > sole dominion over ourselves (and the organisms within ourselves) > is > > not a libertarian. Nor would any libertarian on earth say that > one > > person would have any claim to the body of another. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you deny that gravity exists or do you deny that we own > ourselves? > > > > > > > > > > you can measure gravity, how do you measure natural law? > > > > Gravity IS a natural law and you just stated that you could > measure > > it. Natural rights are a subset of natural law, and rights can't > be > > measured, but the violation of rights can be measured. The > ability to > > measure something is not a requirement for its existance. Can you > > measure love? Do you deny that love exists? > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can not be a libertarian while denying natural law, > natural > > > > rights, or sole dominion over our lives and bodies (including > the > > > > organisms within). > > > > > > > > If you're not a libertarian, I understand completely. Then > it makes > > > > sense that you're claiming that some organism living in a > person's > > > > body has more of a claim on that person's body than they do > for > > > > themselves, but if you are a libertarian, you know this is > bullshit. > > > > > > > > You either take self-ownership as a fact or you don't. There > is no in > > > > between. > > > > > > > > > > even your position is not self consistent if you claim a person > as > > > dominion over there own body then an unborn child should have > dominion > > > over its own body, just because it gets food from the mother > means > > > nothing. > > > > > > Vic > > > > > > > > Wrong. My position is 100% consistent at all times. An "unborn > > child" has no rights because there is no such thing as an unborn > > child. Until the moment it leaves the body of the host, it is a > > biological parasite. And as I said, nothing inside my body has > any > > rights because I alone own my body and all of its contents. I > have > > sole dominion over my body and make all life and death decisions > for > > the organisms within the body and even for my body. Nobody else > on > > earth has any claim to my body, including the organisms within my > > body. The combined population of the planet earth minus me has no > > legitimate say what-so-ever in what I do or don't do with my body > or > > the organisms within. > > > > ALL LIBERTARIANS....I repeat....ALL LIBERTARIANS believe in > complete > > self-ownership of our body and everything inside of our body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > a.. Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! 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