What is a nature, Paul? Are you not a nature? Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:48 AM Subject: objective vs subjective Re: [Libertarian] Re: Socialism/Capitalism of the Author
Who made them? Who says it has to be a "who" that made them. Nature itself made them. Who made the planet Mars? Who made gravity? No entity did it. It's just the natural order of things. I don't believe in any dieties. I don't answer to any gods. I am my own god and I rule over my own body and my property. --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If these laws need to be discovered, then obviously it was not us who made them. Then who? God? > Your statements support 'top down' system. True libertarian society needs to practice the 'down - top' approach, or it will be always at the mercy of some > overlord, like a 'divine on earth' government. > Anna > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 8:58 PM > Subject: objective vs subjective Re: [Libertarian] Re: Socialism/Capitalism of the Author > > > This is corect Ed. Like gravity, natural rights have always existed, > and merely needed to be discovered. > > > > --- In [email protected], "Edward J. Williamson" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Natural laws exist independently of consciousness. The fact that > > existence exists independently of any conscious thought is axiomatic. > > Whether or not man existed has no bearing on gravity or any other > > immutable natural/scientific law. Man may ascribe names and labels, > > and study the existence and applications of those laws, but they > > exist independently of our conscious existence. > > > > --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > < Gravity IS a natural law and you just stated that you could > > measure > > > it. > > > > > > > Nothing can be really measured. All measurements are relative. > > Gravity is not a natural law. When you leave the earth, there is no > > gravity, is there? > > > Gravity is created by mass of an object affecting the space time > > fabric. Without the object, there would be no gravity. Without a man > > peesent, there would be no laws. > > > Anna > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Paul > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 5:30 PM > > > Subject: objective vs subjective Re: [Libertarian] Re: > > Socialism/Capitalism of the Author > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Deus Ex Machina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > Ok, so are you denying that we have sole dominion over our > > own lives > > > > > and body (including the organisms within them)? This means > > you're > > > > > saying that someone else can have more of a claim on your > > body than > > > > > you do. This is the exact opposite of the premise of > > libertarianism. > > > > > > > > > > Either that or you are denying that natural law exists. > > Which is > > > it? > > > > > > > > both. the current system already doesnt give you rights to your > > own dna. > > > > > > > > > Oh, so you're saying you're not a libertarian. That's all you > > had to > > > say. Anyone that denies that we own our own DNA, and that we have > > > sole dominion over ourselves (and the organisms within ourselves) > > is > > > not a libertarian. Nor would any libertarian on earth say that > > one > > > person would have any claim to the body of another. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you deny that gravity exists or do you deny that we own > > ourselves? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you can measure gravity, how do you measure natural law? > > > > > > Gravity IS a natural law and you just stated that you could > > measure > > > it. Natural rights are a subset of natural law, and rights can't > > be > > > measured, but the violation of rights can be measured. The > > ability to > > > measure something is not a requirement for its existance. Can you > > > measure love? Do you deny that love exists? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can not be a libertarian while denying natural law, > > natural > > > > > rights, or sole dominion over our lives and bodies (including > > the > > > > > organisms within). > > > > > > > > > > If you're not a libertarian, I understand completely. Then > > it makes > > > > > sense that you're claiming that some organism living in a > > person's > > > > > body has more of a claim on that person's body than they do > > for > > > > > themselves, but if you are a libertarian, you know this is > > bullshit. > > > > > > > > > > You either take self-ownership as a fact or you don't. There > > is no in > > > > > between. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even your position is not self consistent if you claim a person > > as > > > > dominion over there own body then an unborn child should have > > dominion > > > > over its own body, just because it gets food from the mother > > means > > > > nothing. > > > > > > > > Vic > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong. My position is 100% consistent at all times. An "unborn > > > child" has no rights because there is no such thing as an unborn > > > child. Until the moment it leaves the body of the host, it is a > > > biological parasite. And as I said, nothing inside my body has > > any > > > rights because I alone own my body and all of its contents. I > > have > > > sole dominion over my body and make all life and death decisions > > for > > > the organisms within the body and even for my body. Nobody else > > on > > > earth has any claim to my body, including the organisms within my > > > body. The combined population of the planet earth minus me has no > > > legitimate say what-so-ever in what I do or don't do with my body > > or > > > the organisms within. > > > > > > ALL LIBERTARIANS....I repeat....ALL LIBERTARIANS believe in > > complete > > > self-ownership of our body and everything inside of our body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > a.. Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/KlSolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
