You should obviously have not read Objectivism (by :Leonard Piekoff)… Picking an choosing quotes from Ayn Rand does not convey the scope of Objectivism; if you dare read the book, you will see that you’re off the mark on morality. The first premise of Objectivism is that A is A; that reality exist regardless of our observation or our own existence. That there is an irreducible axiom on which to build this premise of reason… Her philosophy is at odds with all forms of mystify, i.e. mystics of mind and muscle. She argues that man’s survival depends on his ability to think; to form concepts and higher modules of the same... And, that any system or belief that places mans in servitude of others, i.e. sacrificing the individual to the group, is itself immoral and hinders our ability to be masters of our domain. She figures that only through free will, each man seeking his own interest, we yield an overall benefit to humanity. We push back the ever encroaching decay that surrounds us and further our chances for survival in nature… Each generation, individuals free to think and choose, advancing our way of life. In other words, as we sit here at our PC and boggle back and forth over the internet; a technology that none of us here invented, but all can enjoy without having to fully understand the entire technology that makes it possible… Those pioneered this innovation, motivated by own interest, i.e. direct profit, hourly wages, salary, fames or whatever their motive, left us a legacy on which to build and re-platform with other technologies and fields. The point she makes on morality is that “coercion” is immoral because it hinders or stalls our survival; it discourages self interest, i.e. when a man is stripped of his property (tangible or intangible) in any form, he will avoid certain choices or be prohibited from the same, because his own interest is not upheld. Hence, it is not difficult to establish a moral diatribe that demonstrates theft, killing, incest, lying, etc. are all immoral… because A is A. J Cheers, Justo <http://www.NuGamers.com> www.NuGamers.com Kingwood & Woodlands, Tx. Game Club "Life, Liberty, & Property Rights." -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geof Gibson Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 4:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas True. What I was getting at is that morality can either be objective or relative. If it is objective, then it exists outside the material world. This is the Platonic view as opposed to a Nietzschean view of moral relativism. As such, objective morality could exist without a supreme being, but cannot be atheist. There has to be a higher plane where morality is beyond subjective human conventions. The creator does not need to be a supreme being in the monotheistic sense, but does need to be beyond the human, material plane.
This quote from Ayn: "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." is not strictly objectivist as it depends on man's subjective view of his own happiness. I'm NOT trying to claim Ayn's philosophy is not objective, so save the hate mail. I'm just saying that, if she defines her philosophy this way, it is not strictly objective. She has described her metaphysics as objective reality, but her ethics, which would be where morality falls, as self interest, which is entirely subjective. On Jan 1, 2006, at 1:48 PM, justo wrote: > Hold on Geof... Ayn Rand's Objectivism demonstrates how morality is > imbedded in her philosophy; and with no need for a supreme being. > > Cheers, > > Justo > www.NuGamers.com > Kingwood & Woodlands, Tx. Game Club > > "Life, Liberty, & Property Rights." > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of geofgibson > Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas > > Your interpretation of the First Amendment must be twisted by your > atheism. > > The only violation of the 1st Amendment would be if someone was forced > to > pray. Any voluntary prayer is totally within the free exercise of > religion. > Even those who are compelled to attend public schools are in no way > compelled to pray. > > > > "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one > people > to > dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, > and > to > assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station > to > which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent > respect > to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the > causes > which impel them to the separation." > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created > equal, > that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable > Rights, > that > among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." > > > > These both show that a) a creator, or God is the source of natural > law, > and > that b) the Founders were not secularists. > > There is no morality without an authority. Try reducing your natural > law > and secular morality down to their source and you come up with > nothing. > Without a creator you have nothing to create values. If there is no > spiritual power, then why does life, or even liberty have value? If > all > there is, is what we have in the material world, then there is no > reason > to > live or strive to excel. > > > > _____ > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On > Behalf Of Paul > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:16 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas > > > > The 1st amendment isn't "weakened" by school prayer, it's utterly > violated. The 1st amendment is not merely to prevent a government > sanctioned religion (which is what this is), it's here to keep all > government out of religion and all religion out of government. The > United States Government and its laws didn't come from Judeo-Christian > ethics, biblical teachings, or monotheism. They came from natural law > and secular morality. > > I'm an atheist, and I say if we're going to have any religious > doctrine posted in courthouses, that it only be Muslim teachings, and > prayers in school only if they're on prayer rugs pointed toward Mecca, > and our money should say "Allah be Praised" instead of "In God We > Trust". And when you go to court, you should swear on the Quran. > > How about that? This is equally appropriate as what's happening right > now. > > > > --- In [email protected], "justo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Mark, it is whining. The 1st Amend is not at all weakened by school > > prayer, plays, or what-ever. As long as the State does not back a > > religion, there is no issue here. If it' your tax dollars that > concerns > > you and how they are being misspent by local and Federal Gov. you're > > overlooking the many other public school waste that's going on right > > under your nose. > > > > I'm an atheist, so there's no reason for me to defend any particular > > religion or school prayer or 10C's on some court-house. I simply > don't > > see the threat of "modern" Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. wanting > to > > place their mark on society in one way or another. As long the > State > > does not impose or spend your tax dollars to this end, the 1st Amend > is > > not at all being eroded in any way. > > > > Property rights should be our focus; the corner stone of our > liberty. > > And, when I say property rights. I mean in every regard; both > tangible > > and intangible. We should focus our attention of the core issues > that > > erode that freedom. "coercion" by special groups who want > entitlements > > and special laws that favor them and achieve all this by tamping > into > > our pockets with all sorts of tax schemes. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Justo > > <HYPERLINK "http://www.NuGamers.com"http://www.NuGamers.com> > www.NuGamers.com > > Kingwood & Woodlands, Tx. Game Club > > > > "Life, Liberty, & Property Rights." > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On Behalf Of mark robert > > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:40 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas > > > > Justo, > > > > > > > > I agree that discussing getting the gov out of schools and ending > > their "schemes" is important. But I disagree that discussing what > > qualifies as a violation of the fist part of the first amendment > > is "whining". > > > > > > > > -Mark > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > You're not the only one paying for the public schools and it > > really makes no sense to > > equate separation of church and state with a Christmas school > > play or > > what ever that was. There's a huge difference between State > > sanctioned > > religion and a Christmas show on a public school stage. > > > > IMHO, this is picking pepper out of fly-sh!t and only ;ends > > itself to > > entertain us. The subject of substance that should be addressed > > is > > coercive tax schemes used to fund public education. > > Unfortunately, we > > all prefer to go on whining about church & state issues, from > > both > > sides, than take the necessary steps to end social engineering > > taxation > > schemes. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Justo > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group > /Lib > ertarian > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > Libertarian > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=Libertarian&w1=Libertarian&w2=Engli > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Libertarian&w1=Libertarian&w2=Engli > > > > sh+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+polit > i > > cs&c=5&s=108&.sig=jGQnaRhfv4RQgZXyK4kr1w> > > English > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=English+language&w1=Libertarian&w2= > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=English+language&w1=Libertarian&w2= > > > > English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+ > p > > olitics&c=5&s=108&.sig=QWSjIRDd7cCvA3JjWf5fnQ> language > > Political > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=Political+parties&w1=Libertarian&w2 > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Political+parties&w1=Libertarian&w2 > > > > =English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American > + > > politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=Nmlb2J_kcrDDcS9fz-a4eg> parties > > > > Online > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=Online+dictionary&w1=Libertarian&w2 > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+dictionary&w1=Libertarian&w2 > > > > =English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American > + > > politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=tfMLc2NuNqcAdgFcVdgR3Q> dictionary > > American > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=American+politics&w1=Libertarian&w2 > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=American+politics&w1=Libertarian&w2 > > > > =English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American > + > > politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=Q4Bxp3h_3TNlBQAgwWP-kw> politics > > > > > > _____ > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "Libertarian > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group > /Lib > ertarian> " on the web. > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service <HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> > . > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group > /Lib > ertarian > > > > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"Libertarian"; on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > > "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > subject=Unsubscribe"Libe > rtar > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: > 12/30/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: > 12/30/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > Yahoo! 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Terms of > Service. > > > Geof Gibson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can always send mail to soundsurgeon.tv as well http://soundsurgeon.tv http://variableproductions.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian SPONSORED LINKS Libertarian <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Libertarian&w1=Libertarian&w2=English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=jGQnaRhfv4RQgZXyK4kr1w> English <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=English+language&w1=Libertarian&w2=English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=QWSjIRDd7cCvA3JjWf5fnQ> language Political <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Political+parties&w1=Libertarian&w2=English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=Nmlb2J_kcrDDcS9fz-a4eg> parties Online <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+dictionary&w1=Libertarian&w2=English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=tfMLc2NuNqcAdgFcVdgR3Q> dictionary American <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=American+politics&w1=Libertarian&w2=English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=Q4Bxp3h_3TNlBQAgwWP-kw> politics _____ YAHOO! 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