As I said, there are quotes questioning the existence of God. I also made the point that the Founders were followers of Christ rather than the churches and priests.
I no more took the quotes out of context than Paul has done below. My main point, is it is disingenuous to say that the Founders were not working on Judeo-Christian principles, when that is, in fact, the basis of their morality. There is no reason that the God of nature and the God of Christ are mutually exclusive. _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas Geof seems to want to re-write history to his own liking, and won't let something like taking quotes out of context stop him. HYPERLINK "http://www.atheists.org/courthouse/charlotte.html"http://www.atheists.org/c ourthouse/charlotte.html "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law." -Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." -Thomas Jefferson "Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry." -Thomas Jefferson "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." -Thomas Paine "The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense." -Thomas Paine "It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man." -Thomas Paine "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." -Benjamin Franklin "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle." -Benjamin Franklin "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -Benjamin Franklin "Every new & successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance." -James Madison "Religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." -James Madison "The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State." -James Madison "If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." -George Washington "We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition" -George Washington "Among many other weighty objections to the Measure, it has been suggested, that it has a tendency to introduce religious disputes into the Army, which above all things should be avoided, and in many instances would compel men to a mode of Worship which they do not profess." -George Washington --- In [email protected], Geof Gibson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Below are just some quotes from our Founding Fathers. There are many > other quotes, some of which even question the existence of God. > My point is it is disingenuous to just state that they didn't believe > in a monotheistic God. > It is also disingenuous to state that no morality comes from the > Christian religion, especially when you quote Christ about separating > government and religion. > > Most of the critiques of religion by the founders are specific to > churches and organized religion when it was used as a form of > government and to control the people. Just because men, whom are all > flawed, usurp religion and churches for their own end, does not condemn > religion and spirituality. > > "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great > nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on > religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. > God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry > > "I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most > acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other > children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; > though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied > it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect > soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." - Benjamin > Franklin > > On Jan 1, 2006, at 2:00 PM, Paul wrote: > > > It seems as though in addition to needing an education on the word > > "defense", you also are woefully misinformed about the founders. They > > were indeed "secularists" and they were mainly non-Christians. They > > didn't believe in the judeo-christian monotheistic concept of "god" > > but rather they believed in a generic higher power called "nature's > > god" or "creator". Neither of these is a belief in the Christian > > "God". They used these generic terms on purpose as to include anyone > > you believe your "creator" to be whether it be nature, Vishnu, Buddha, > > God, or your parents and they wanted to let people know that our > > rights are with us at birth (not before), and that they don't come > > from the government. > > > > The founders, (much like Jesus of Nazareth) wanted to keep government > > completely out of religion and all religion completely out of > > government. > > > > Morality doesn't come from religion, especially the Christian > > religion. Without any religion or any belief in god, we'd still have > > morality, because we'd still have natural law...which is what our > > government and laws are based on. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "geofgibson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > Your interpretation of the First Amendment must be twisted by your > > atheism. > > > > > > The only violation of the 1st Amendment would be if someone was > > forced to > > > pray. Any voluntary prayer is totally within the free exercise of > > religion. > > > Even those who are compelled to attend public schools are in no way > > > compelled to pray. > > > > > > > > > > > > "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one > > people to > > > dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, > > and to > > > assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal > > station to > > > which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent > > respect > > > to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the > > causes > > > which impel them to the separation." > > > > > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created > > equal, > > > that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable > > Rights, that > > > among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." > > > > > > > > > > > > These both show that a) a creator, or God is the source of natural > > law, and > > > that b) the Founders were not secularists. > > > > > > There is no morality without an authority. Try reducing your > > natural law > > > and secular morality down to their source and you come up with > > nothing. > > > Without a creator you have nothing to create values. If there is no > > > spiritual power, then why does life, or even liberty have value? > > If all > > > there is, is what we have in the material world, then there is no > > reason to > > > live or strive to excel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lib ertarian > > > > > > YAHOO! 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