https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811
--- Comment #6 from Aleve Sicofante <[email protected]> --- 2014-07-20 15:52 GMT+02:00 <[email protected]>: > *Comment # 5 <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811#c5> on > bug 79811 <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811> from David > Tardon <[email protected]> * > > (In reply to comment #4 > <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811#c4>)> > > My proposal is > that Hybrid PDF is offered as yet another document format to > > > > the Save command and even allowing making it default. > > > > > > I strongly disagree. > > > > That's obvious, but you have yet to explain why. > > All right, so just from the top of my head (so in a random order or > importance): > > * It is _slow_. I mean really slow: export to PDF is easily 10 times slower > than save to ODF. Import is slower too, for technical reasons that cannot > easily be changed. > > I'm not advocating for Hybrid PDF to become a default saving format. All its drawbacks are up to the user, including this one. > * (I have already said that, but...) There is no way to differentiate between > normal and hybrid PDFs when looking at directory listing. > > This can be easily implemented. Since the format is being created inside LIbreOffice, it can be marked as HybridPDF in the corresponding place in the file. BTW, all of this is irrelevant to my point: whether the Hybrid PDF is created via "Save as..." or "Export" doesn't change this issue. > * Worse yet, there is no way to differentiate between different types of > documents (text, presentations, spreadsheets, ...) That is a major usability > regression compared to using ODF. > > As I said, this is easily solvable and it would apply exactly the same to Hybrid PDF as export. > * It effectively means that we are creating a new document format, not > supported by anyone else. There is already too many different file formats. > (This alone is a deal breaker for me.) > > So what? It's not like ODF is being supported by everyone. Besides, there's a good reason to use a Hybrid PDF for certain organizations, as I've pointed out already. > * It duplicates functionality. > > Again, so what? All of the formats "duplicate functionality" in some way. Hybrid PDF can earn a place among other file formats for reasons I have already explained. > * It creates the perception of PDF as an editable format, which it is not. > > As long as you make it visibly different (by saving the right bits to identify such Hybrid PDF files) there won't be such perception at all. > I am sure I could come with a few more if I really thought about it. > > If they're are as strong as the previous ones, you are actually supporting my point... > > > > > > > > From a formal point of view, since an Hybrid PDF file can be opened in > > > > LibreOffice Writer exactly the same as an ODT file, it shouldn't belong > > > > to > > > > the export option. > > > > > > Wrong. A hybrid PDF is still a PDF. Also, there is _no way_ to > > > differentiate > > > a hybrid PDF from normal PDF except opening it, So these files would not > > > be > > > listed in open dialog. > > > > Wronng. A Hybrid PDF is a PDF+ODF file. No way to differentiate both is > > irrelevant. > > It is very much relevant from usability POV. If I have a directory full of > PDFs, the only way to discover which ones I can edit and which can only be > imported is to actually try to open them. > > OK. You're right. H-PDF should be recognizable. That's true both for "Export" as "Save as...". Remember I'm asking here for H-PDF to become a "saveable" format, for reasons well explained (I want the organizations supported by me to use it by default, which isn't possible with the "Export" option). Again, this is easily done when saving the file. Just write the right bits to make it recognizable by the OS. An H-PDF should be shown as a standard PDF when LibreOffice is not installed on the computer. > > > > > > > > > Expected behavior: > > > > Hybrid PDF should be like any other document format, working on every > > > > Save/Save As/Save a Copy/etc. commands. > > > > > > I can already imagine uninformed users trying to use export to PDF instead > > > of normal save in other applications, "because it works in LibreOffice", > > > and > > > losing their work... > > > > I don't follow this logic. LibreOffice only has to show "This PDF is not > > Hybrid and can't be edited in Writer" when a user trys to open (not import) > > a PDF. That won't happen with internal documents but will probably happen > > with many external ones. > > This was not about LibreOffice at all. I was talking about uninformed users > being misled into belief that PDFs can be edited in LibreOffice and losing > their work created in _other_ applications as a consequence. > > This -once more- is a problem both for saving and exporting. I've suggested a solution to this issue already. > > Besides, nothing prevents HybridPDFs to be shown > > with a different icon so you know which are Hybrid and which aren't. > > Nothing except the fact that the only way to recognize a hybrid PDF is to open > it. That is slow even locally if there is more than a few dozens of files, not > mentioning doing it for a remote folder. Also, this would only work in > LibreOffice's internal file dialog, not if the system one is used. > > Files are recognized by some sort of "magic number" written to the file. You can do that for Hybrid PDFs the same you do for evey other type file. On Windows, you would rely on the file's extension. I don't have a solution to that (I'm not a Windows user), but -again- that's a "problem" for both exporting and saving. I'm asking here for a saving mechanism for the H-PDF format, as opposed to exporting only, for reasons clearly explained. > > > > Just ouf of curiosity: what's your opinion on Hybrid PDFs? You just seem to > > hate them for no reason. Your overly agressive reply is way out of line. > > I have nothing about hybrid PDF. I recognize its value for having a PDF export > of a document that can still be opened for editing, if necessary. But it is > still a PDF and nothing is going to change that. > > Actually, it's not "still a PDF". It's more than that and that's why it exists. I'm just asking for it to be "saveable", instead of "exportable". A file that can be edited by LibreOffice should be both "saveable" and "openable", not just "exportable" and "importable". Most of your issues are with the format itself. You're not addressing the point of this bug report, which is "make it saveable" instead (or in addition to) "exportable". -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
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