The Open Meeting Laws provide that whenever a quorum of a Town committee is meeting, The meeting must be open to the public. There is nothing wrong or violative of that law in discussions on Lincoln Talk. If anything is n “open” forum, it is this list serve.
- Sent from iPhone. Typed by thumb. Excuse misspellings! > On Feb 2, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Peter Buchthal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi All, > I have a suggestion to offer regarding Lincoln Talk and reducing the > possibility of the Open Meeting Violations. As Lincoln Talk operates as a > listserv emailing discussions to all subscribers, if only two School > Committee Members subscribed and participated in Lincoln Talk, no quorum > would be reached in any discussion and thus no Open Meeting violations. The > other members would unsubscribe from Lincoln Talk to ensure that a quorum > would never be reached. If a subject matter required further discussion > with the full School Committee, those two School Committee Members could put > the issue(s) on the next open meeting's agenda to report back to the full > committee about the issues and opinions during an Open Meeting, and more > quickly and efficiently incorporate the public into very important decisions. > > > I'm not a lawyer, but I thinkTown Council could help the Lincoln School > Committee establish rules to ensure that there's better and more frequent two > way communications between the public and the Committee using Lincoln Talk > while avoiding any Open Meeting violations. The public in Lincoln uses > Lincoln Talk to communicate and debate. Lincoln's governmental committees > need to figure a way to more actively participate with Lincoln Talk. > > Best, > Peter Buchthal > > > > >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 7:56 PM David Cuetos <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hi Andy, >> >> I would say the School Committee is falling short of informing and engaging >> school parents and the wider resident community. I am going to suggest two >> complementary schemes that would go a long way to correct this deficit >> without violating Open Meeting Laws. >> >> There is nothing preventing the School Committee from sending out a memo >> that addresses in depth all the issues raised in the LincolnTalk discussion >> and explains their choices with a proper cost reward analysis. The Community >> Center Building Committee did something similar when they started to get >> push back from this forum. It would be very helpful for the community to get >> more transparency in the decision making process for these important school >> policy choices. I have watched the School Committee meetings in which the >> budget was discussed. Unfortunately, there was no substantive debate on any >> of these important decisions during those meetings. All of these choices >> were taken for granted. >> >> Right now, there is no forum where town residents can debate with the School >> Committee and the School Administration on matters of import. I realize >> there is a public comment section at the beginning of most School Committee >> meetings, but it isn't a two-way communication format. Residents have three >> minutes to talk, everybody is silent and at the end of the intervention >> nobody opines and nothing is heard about the issue ever again. To give you >> an example, Peter Buchthal and I are concerned about the Hanscom's school's >> OPEB liability. For those not in the know, the town has accrued an >> approximately $5M retirement liability with Hanscom's employees. If we are >> not able to renew the contract with the DoD after 2025 in terms that are >> favorable to Lincoln, my understanding is that we are on the hook for that >> $5M. That liability figure is very sensitive to different assumptions like >> future returns or salary growth for existing and future employees, meaning >> the actual number could be much larger (or smaller). Right now we are only >> funding that liability $200k per year on average. Peter's question to the >> School Committee and the Administration during Public Comment was simple: >> given how rich the current contract with the DoD is and how little >> visibility we have about its renewal, why aren't we funding that liability >> much more aggressively while we can? No response was provided during that >> meeting and no follow-up has occurred since. I can give you another example, >> I am trying to understand why Lincoln pays $1M in employment retirement >> contributions while Hanscom only pays $160k despite its 15% larger staff. >> The Administration (both the town's and the school's) have gone silent on >> the matter, and the School Committee, which is copied in my correspondence >> with the School Administration, has declined to participate. >> >> My suggestion for the School Committee is to make themselves available to >> the overall community in a proper open forum where all issues concerning our >> school can be debated. Again, this would not be unprecedented. The CCBC >> conducted a similar exercise ahead of the Special Town Meeting. >> >> I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread for taking time >> out of their busy lives to engage in a civic public debate. >> >> Best, >> >> David Cuetos >> >>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 6:32 PM Andy Wang <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Peter (and anyone else following along), >>> >>> I just wanted to point out that I'm not sure you are going to get a direct >>> response from John, or anyone on the School Committee, via this forum >>> (Lincoln Talk) due to Open Meeting Laws on electronic communications. >>> Lincoln Talk is a listserv. >>> >>> Source: >>> https://www.mass.gov/info-details/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-open-meeting-law#frequently-asked-questions-about-the-open-meeting-law:-deliberation-and-electronic-communication >>> --- >>> May members of a public body participate in a listserv? >>> It depends. A listserv is an electronic mailing list. A member of a public >>> body may subscribe to a listserv. However, where a quorum of the members of >>> a public body subscribe to a listserv, the public body risks unlawful >>> deliberation. Where a quorum of the members of a public body belong to a >>> listserv, public body members cannot participate in discussions which >>> involve subject matter within the jurisdiction of the public body without >>> engaging in unlawful deliberation. Therefore, we recommend that public body >>> members use caution when joining or participating in listservs in which >>> subject matters within the jurisdiction of their public body may be >>> discussed. >>> --- >>> >>> So while we (the public) can discuss topics, I'm not sure they can engage >>> in this forum without running afoul of Open Meeting Laws if a certain >>> number of them (quorum) are even just subscribed cause that would count as >>> deliberation. I think that means they can post informational items, but not >>> engage in ongoing discussions. I think that full engagement with the >>> committee needs to take place during posted meetings. But that's just my >>> read. >>> >>> That makes it a little tricky for candidates to discuss, especially since >>> Adam is a current member of the committee and also a candidate. I have no >>> idea how something like that is handled. I just thought I'd point it out if >>> you were thinking of having an open public discussion here that engages the >>> school committee on here. I've always wondered why committees don't chime >>> in on LT, but the Open Meeting Laws might be preventing that. >>> >>> I just thought I'd call that out in case people are wondering why the >>> committee hasn't chimed in directly. >>> >>> - Andy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 9:18 PM Andy Wang <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> I was just keying off of something you said "The recently approved FY24 >>>> Budget contradicts the chart as it funds 4 classroom teachers per each 6, >>>> 7 and 8 grade. " What are you keying off of in the budget? How are you >>>> counting teachers where there are ones that teach sections across grades >>>> and specialists? I was just pointing out that while there were 4 homeroom >>>> teachers in 6th, but there are only 3 sections for the kids. Those >>>> teachers don't 'just have homeroom duties', like my kid's homeroom teacher >>>> is also his ELA teacher. >>>> >>>> Parents can certainly voice concerns. Gifted children want extra >>>> attention, and parents of gifted kids advocate for that. Struggling >>>> students want extra attention, and those parents advocate for them. It IS >>>> complicated in the sense that you need to optimize across a wide range of >>>> students and abilities, and philosophical stance on what it means to be a >>>> student at Lincoln Public Schools and there are trades that need to be >>>> made. I mean, do you KNOW that the administration hasn't looked at ways >>>> of optimizing things? >>>> >>>> When it comes down to it, I'm happy to wax philosophical on Lincoln Talk >>>> all day long (clearly), but my parting point was just that the school >>>> committee is elected and folks should be electing people who they think >>>> represent their views. There are many ways to focus the school. We could >>>> teach more to the MCAS and increase that ranking, we could make larger >>>> classes, remove special programs, decrease special services, increase >>>> gifted programs, decrease spending. All of those things come with >>>> trade-offs and those decisions are not going to be made here. And only >>>> foot stomping this stronger now cause deadline to pull papers is tomorrow. >>>> >>>> - Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:53 PM Peter Buchthal <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Andy, >>>>> >>>>> I don't see your distinction between listed teachers who have classrooms >>>>> for core subjects and other teachers who apparently just host homeroom >>>>> students and have other classroom duties. Our school population has >>>>> decreased by 20 % in the last 10 years and apparently the administration >>>>> and school committee can't even consider optimizing the staff to offer >>>>> additional academic services the students and parents want while lowering >>>>> the ongoing costs of running the school. Every year, without much >>>>> debate, the School Committee asks and gets the maximum 2.5% raise over >>>>> the previous year and that is considered success even though our school >>>>> population keeps going down. Our student teacher ratio is >>>>> significantly lower than almost everyone (37% more teachers than the >>>>> state average), Our MCAS scores are middle of the pack, our cost per >>>>> student is 6K higher than almost every other school except for Weston and >>>>> the School says basically, "we can't cut a thing, you don't understand, >>>>> it's complicated." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reply >>>>> Forward >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 6:14 PM Andy Wang <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> Peter, >>>>>> >>>>>> Not to jump in on a conversation between you and John, but since you >>>>>> posted publicly, I figure it would be okay. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wanted to point out, that in the middle school, there is a distinction >>>>>> between the listed teachers (from the enrollment report) and sections >>>>>> that are on John's chart. I have a son who is in 6th grade (60 in his >>>>>> class). In the enrollment report you linked to (the 2022 Enrollment >>>>>> Report), it indicates that there are 4 groups, what I'll call >>>>>> 'homerooms' each led by a teacher (4 listed there). But when they go to >>>>>> class, he says they only have 3 sections, of about 20 in each section. >>>>>> This seems to match the chart that John included in his email, which >>>>>> specifies sections. I think in the middle school, the teacher ratio >>>>>> gets a little more confusing since some subject teachers teach one >>>>>> grade, some multiple, and also specialists (who could teach multiple >>>>>> grades) as opposed to in the elementary school where the 'homeroom' >>>>>> teachers, for the most part, teach all subjects to their class (but also >>>>>> some specials here too). While I understand your argument, I don't >>>>>> think it's quite as simple as just cutting a section. >>>>>> >>>>>> As a staffing side note, the town probably also doesn't want to get into >>>>>> a situation where, say you decide to cut a section of a grade and then >>>>>> have a teacher who teaches across the middle school grades with a < 1 >>>>>> FTE load. To which I think the natural tendency for those teachers would >>>>>> be to go look for other employment when they can get a full time >>>>>> position. So there is a balance there as well. Just some food for >>>>>> thought. >>>>>> >>>>>> To a large extent, while public Lincoln Talk discussions are >>>>>> entertaining, real change happens in the committee, which is an elected >>>>>> position. I'll go back to the statement that if folks are unhappy with >>>>>> the direction of the school and want some impact, the more productive >>>>>> course of action is to run for a seat, state your opinions and views, >>>>>> and see if there is a large enough group of folks who share that view. >>>>>> That's the real mandate for change, otherwise, the committee really has >>>>>> no idea if this is like 1/2 the town feels this way or it is just a >>>>>> select vocal minority. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>> To post, send mail to [email protected]. >>>>> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. >>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>> >>> -- >>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>> To post, send mail to [email protected]. >>> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. >>> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>> Change your subscription settings at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>> > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to [email protected]. > Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >
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